Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

Pramas said:


Why would you think that? Ahriman is described as a Champion of Law. The whole point of Ahriman and Jazirian is that they are lawful beings who together define things about the universe. So Jazirian goes to the Lawful Good plane and Ahriman goes to the Lawful Evil plane.

What I am objecting to is the use of dualistic theology in a cosmology which purports to establish balance between the extremes of law, chaos, good, and evil. I am not objecting to your use of Jazirian/Ahriman from a theological context, but from a logical one. Sure, if you rigidly adhere to Persian mythology and extrapolate Ahriman as a "Champion of Law," I can see your point, but what I am saying is that the Great Wheel would seem to be better served as a concept if neutral good and neutral evil entities were used as the catalyst, if and only if a dualistic theology must be used at all.

I am just saying that your concept of dualism as derived from Persian dualism, especially with your interpretation as a struggle between Lawful powers, doesn't mesh well with the Great Wheel cosmology, which presumes that all ideological extremities balance each other out by virtue of both their existence and the entities that personify their existence.

It seems logical to me that in a dualistic system predicated upon two opposing Lawful beings, planes like Limbo, Pandemonnium, Ysgard, the Abyss, etc. would most likely not have emerged, subordinate as their resident powers would have been to the (Lawful) Overpowers (Jazirian and Ahriman, in this case) which originally defined (through intention or incident) the cosmology.
 
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Demons and devils seem best utilized when their quantitative advantages are balanced by their qualitative advantages (such as they are/would be) in respect to each other. Making the ruler of one of these races the supreme Adversary, in a campaign which uses both, polarizes power in favor of one. In other words, I think that a neutral evil power, representing neither lawful nor chaotic evil, would have been better suited to use schema, even if it conflicted with your desire to preserve the integrity of Persian dualism and your interpretation of that dualism as a conflict between Lawful beings.

Dualism just doesn't fit with Great Wheel cosmology...IMHO.
 

Information said:


What I am objecting to is the use of dualistic theology in a cosmology which purports to establish balance between the extremes of law, chaos, good, and evil. I am not objecting to your use of Jazirian/Ahriman from a theological context, but from a logical one. Sure, if you rigidly adhere to Persian mythology and extrapolate Ahriman as a "Champion of Law," I can see your point, but what I am saying is that the Great Wheel would seem to be better served as a concept if neutral good and neutral evil entities were used as the catalyst, if and only if a dualistic theology must be used at all.

I am just saying that your concept of dualism as derived from Persian dualism, especially with your interpretation as a struggle between Lawful powers, doesn't mesh well with the Great Wheel cosmology, which presumes that all ideological extremities balance each other out by virtue of both their existence and the entities that personify their existence.

It seems logical to me that in a dualistic system predicated upon two opposing Lawful beings, planes like Limbo, Pandemonnium, Ysgard, the Abyss, etc. would most likely not have emerged, subordinate as their resident powers would have been to the (Lawful) Overpowers (Jazirian and Ahriman, in this case) which originally defined (through intention or incident) the cosmology.

While I understand your argument, I'm not so certain your entirely accurate.

The Adversary that A Guide to Hell offers with Asmodeus does not shatter the concept of the Great Wheel as described in 3ed Manual of the Planes. Nor does the myth Pramas, et al created become mired into a dualistic cosmology.

As I've said before, Lawful alignments will and must have an intellectual center. Law must have a reason to be, and it must be purposeful and rational. Such is not the case with Neutral or Chaotic alignments. Chaotic alignments have no "direction" or unity; those that represent this alignment bully and coerce or exist or whatever, but they aren't interested in helping other people believe or buy into their alignment. Neutral is not interested in a buy in either, but they are interested in promoting their alignment by any means available, although there is very rarely a unity since there are so many ways to promote their given positions. Lawful, on the other hand, does everything methodically and with a unifying goal in mind. For this reason, having over powers or "Prime" representations of good, evil, and neutral make sense for these alignments. It could also explain why the "lackies" these alignments are universally weaker than their compatriots in the Chaotic and Neutral camps: Since they are so unified, they would pose a risk to the "overpower" in charge if they were stronger.

With regards to the creators of the universe and all that... Well, fA Guide to Hell only deals with the Lawful components of creation, paying no regard to the creation of Sigil, the other planes, or the Prime. In most myths, it is a Lawful force (or forces) that come together to reign in the raw energy of Chaos. The decision to discuss only Ahriman and Jazirian (whom I replaced a long time ago with Ahura Mazda) makes sense from these two regards.

As for A Guide to Hell promoting dualism, I think you're a little off base. Asmodeus is trapped in Hell. After he and Jazirian seperated, the Cosmos continued to function without them. Many of the struggled between the various pantheons have absolutely nothing to do with them. Even the Blood War has limited meaning to Asmodeus. And, with his entrapment in Hell, Asmodeus' interaction with the Prime is extremely limited, curbing his influence on specific worlds. Is the option there to create a dualistic cosmology? Certainly. But I don't think A Guide to Hell explictily attempts to do so.
 

Another problem with the Blood War is the inability of demons to kill the more powerful varieties of devil. Some types of devils have regeneration and only take damage from blessed or holy weapons (of +x enchantment for the really big ones). Demons (other than retrievers) have no regeneration. Add to this the ability of devils to see through any darkness and their ability to work in coherent groups, and I don't see why the Blood War is still waged. Surely the legions of the Abyss would realize that they cannot make any meaningful gains and quit after a while.

-Tiberius
 

Tiberius said:
Surely the legions of the Abyss would realize that they cannot make any meaningful gains and quit after a while.

That´s why demons are chaotic evil. They might experience that kind of defeat all the time...and don´t care. They simply keep going for the fun of destruction and killing. ;)
 

Hi! I have been recently reworking cosmolgy in my campaign, and most powerful Demon Lords/Archdevils/ Yugoloth Lords, etc have Divine Rank of 21-25. Yes, they are stronger than Greater Gods, for there are thousands of Crystal Spheres in my multiverse, including a bit modified Oerth, Toril, Krynn and Athas, and NO Greater Power is worshipped in most Crystal Spheres, on Krynn there is Paladine, on Toril there is Tyr, while you can meet a follower of Orcus everywhere, for he is the primordial Chaotic Evil Power of Undeath. I have three main Overgods of Evil( Divine Rank 26-30): Asmodeus, Overpower of Lawful Evil( very similar to canon Asmodeus), Tharidizun, Overpower of Chaotic Evil, Lord of Abyss, and most powerful of those three( Divine Rank 29 or 30), Baal, Overpower of Neutral Evil, whose primary servants are Yugoloths.
 

Well, what I am arguing is that the dualistic pre-cosmogony (of Jazirian and Ahriman) of the Guide to Hell is a poor concept for a system like the Great Wheel, which assumes that all alignments are balanced. While the cause (the dualistic struggle) may be irrelevant to the future state of the effect (all Outer Planes, each balancing each other), it is not irrelevant to the initial state of the effect (again, the balanced Great Wheel), which the Guide to Hell suggests grew out of this struggle between Overpowers of Law.

Worse yet, we have a Lawful Evil power (Greater Deity in 2nd Ed.), who exists at the nexus between Neutral Evil and Lawful Neutral, and yet represents both a negation of faith and devotion to the deities and a potential negation of the cosmos as a whole, which would "be remade" in Asmodeus's liking. What is the basis of these concepts? one may ask. Simply because Asmodeus bears similarities with the Devil of Christian mythology. The use of Hell and devils no doubt adds to this assumption.

Somehow, Pramas (or whoever deserves the "blaim" for the concept) thinks that this is compatible with a multiplanar cosmology with balanced alignments and numerous deities of equal power. It isn't. Its just as absurd as positing Ragnorak for ALL the planes of existence simply because the designer (of a Guide to Asgard?) likes the Asgardian deities and thinks that their real-world destruction myth should be applied to co-existent pantheons and planes of a balanced distribution!

The Great Wheel, traditionally, was a system of co-existent pantheons with their myths relatively balanced. Ragnorak may be a possible future state of affairs, but only for the Norse deities!

Ultimately, the Jazirian/Ahriman works best in a cosmology with not so tight a balance of alignments as the Great Wheel. I like Asmodeus, but my campaign presumes multiple evil deities (indeed, multiple co-existent pantheons). In such a state of affairs, the notion of an Adversary, except in INDIVIDUAL pantheons within their INDIVIDUAL contexts, becomes and remains absurd.
 
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In an effort...

Melkor said:
whose primary servants are Yugoloths.
<sarcasm>
In an effort to slightly troll for more flamebait on this forum, I have one reaction to the above...

There are no Yugoloths. There are only Daemons.
</sarcasm>

I just figured that while everyone else is talking about their favorite (or non-favorite) treatments of mythology and the outer planes, I could get in a dig at the whole Yugoloth/Tanar'ri/Baatezu versus Daemons/Devils/Demons thing. Obviously, I personally prefer the latter.

--The Sigil
 

Melkor said:
Hi! I have been recently reworking cosmolgy in my campaign, and most powerful Demon Lords/Archdevils/ Yugoloth Lords, etc have Divine Rank of 21-25. Yes, they are stronger than Greater Gods, for there are thousands of Crystal Spheres in my multiverse, including a bit modified Oerth, Toril, Krynn and Athas, and NO Greater Power is worshipped in most Crystal Spheres, on Krynn there is Paladine, on Toril there is Tyr, while you can meet a follower of Orcus everywhere, for he is the primordial Chaotic Evil Power of Undeath. I have three main Overgods of Evil( Divine Rank 26-30): Asmodeus, Overpower of Lawful Evil( very similar to canon Asmodeus), Tharidizun, Overpower of Chaotic Evil, Lord of Abyss, and most powerful of those three( Divine Rank 29 or 30), Baal, Overpower of Neutral Evil, whose primary servants are Yugoloths.

But the Big T is Neutral Evil.
 


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