Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Kobold Avenger]

While were on the subject of Archdevils, can anyone come up with a reason why Levistus and Geryon are two seperate entities. Because back when just Planes of Law came out, I thought that Levistus was Geryon with a different name. But in A Guide to Hell it reveals that they're two seperate entities, and that Levistus replaced Geryon.

 

[Nightfall]

Geez. I go away from this thread for a while and it turns into a free for all! Still I'm GLAD it's not totally degenerated. I still find the discussion (ESPECIALLY by Chris here) very interesting AND enlightening. (Course helps that Krusty jumps in now and then! )

 

[Pramas]

Pramas,

I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me.

In Guide to Hell , you use Jazirian as the standard of Lawful good. While I recognize the world serpent imagery she represents, it seems that she's a rather weak character to use to contest the power of Asmodeus. Why not have created (as you seemed to do in Legions of Hell a new set of beings similar to Ormazd and his Holy Spirits to rule Heaven? Was this mandated by WoTC?

Two reasons. One, creating a whole new set of Celestials after Warriors of Heaven had already come out was not really a possibility. Second, Jazirian was perfect for what I had in mind in two ways. As you already noted, she is rooted in world serpent imagery. Additionally, if you look in Monster Mythology, it notes that Jazirian has no clerics. That little detail fit right into the idea I had of Asmodeus and Jazirian pre-dating the rule of belief on the planes.

Second, what IS your take on the whole Asmodeus as Overpower debate?

As I said, my goal was to make Asmodeus into a real Adversary, in a mythic sense. People can take that idea and run with it, or they can discard it. That's what being a DM is all about.

Finally, I had some very specific questions about the power-levels of some of the Dukes in Legions of Hell ; a few seem less powerful than Pit Fiends.

I was trying to create interesting opponents across a broad range of CRs. That's why some are weaker than others. Also, politically speaking, it's not always the biggest bruiser that's the best politician.

 

[The Traveler]

Manual of the Planes 3E has Kiriansalee disappearing shortly after the rumours of Orcus returning. Either Orcus has killed her, or she's afraid enough of him that she's gone to ground. Bottom line, he's a threat to her (and how could he not be? He killed Bwimb, Manzecorian, Primus, etc.) and Orcus likely has his layer back.

This would seem to imply that Divine Rank is not an automatic trump card in combat, and beings that do not necessarily have any intrinsic Divine Rank can still kill those that do if sufficiently powerful.

Given what's presented in Deities and Demigods, it seems that short of a deity having Annihilating Strike, there's nothing that says a god of higher Divine Rank is always capable of defeating those of lower Divine Rank in combat. Certainly each major category (Demigod, Lesser, Intermediate, Greater) has some advantages, but lacking the raw combat stats to back them up, they can still be killed.

Ergo, divine beings, like Kiriansalee, are quite justified in being frightened of Demon Princes and Archdevils. Overfiends (to invent a generic term) may not have the power over the Prime Material that deities do, but they're quite capable of defending the layers they hold in their respective planes, otherwise they wouldn't rule them.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

In 2e Kiaranslee was weaker than Orcus, she was a Demipower while Orcus was an Intermediate Power. When Orcus came back as Tenebrous, he went to Arborea and discovered an ancient power called the Last Word. It was something from 2e's recurring Elder Language or Language Primevil which is a language whose words can reshape reality. It gave him the capability to kill Maanzercorian, Primus, Bwimb, the Aztec God Camaxtli and some unidentified goddess named Tomeri. The point was though the Last Word would eventually kill any non-deity level being who wielded it (as Orcus was a deity no longer without it wand), any being could still use it.

 

[Information]

Re: Another explaination

If you accept the fact (which you may not, again your campaign may vary ), that each of the planes of hell are infinite in size (infinity x 9?, there's a concept ), unless Asmodeus, or any other evil god living there is omniscient in your campaign, it is not only possible, it is mathematically probable that that these being are all living on these planes and aren't even aware of each other! Remember, we are talking about infinite space here. Sure Asmodeus and his cronies may control the area around the Pit, but who cares? The plane(s) are infinitely big. Evil deity X needs more room for all the souls he collected...just spread out. You only have to "run into" some other major power if you want to, but why would you want to do that? There is always more space.

Regardless of whether or not Asmodeus is actually a god, would be fairly irrelevant to those beings that we all agree are true gods. Why you ask? It is due to the fact that while he may or may not be stronger than other evil gods, we can all agree on the fact that he has access to god-like resources (armies of devils, powerful lieutenants, powerful magics, etc.). Why waste your own resources fighting over something that's irrelevant? Want to control more space than Asmodeus? Just send your forces out and plant your flag. Want to have more personal power than Asmodeus, just get more worshipers, create some artifacts, etc. All of these things, and many more, will make evil god X more "powerful" than Asmodeus (and vise versa), without wasting resources or putting themselves in any danger.

Anyway, it's something to think about

It certainly is!

Now, if I had the time, I'd apply your logic to the Blood War...probably one of the most fallacious concepts to come out of 2nd Editon AD&D.

 

[Rhialto]

Hmm...

I always liked the Blood War, as it gave a credible reason why devils and demons weren't the same species, and was a lot more fun than the typical Good/Evil wars...

 

[bramadan]

I too quite liked the Blood War, it was for me one of The most unique parts of DnD cosmology...

 

[Information]

I too quite liked the Blood War, it was for me one of The most unique parts of DnD cosmology...

The "uniqueness" of the Blood War is perfectly compatible with it being illgical.

As JohnBrown pointed out with regard to the infinite nature of the Nine Hells, a "Blood War" is, well, Bloody ridiculous. He pointed out that the infinite nature of each layer of the Hells would seem to negate any perceived necessity for conflict between deities and archdevils. The same with the Blood War. With two infinite planes (Baator and the Abyss) removed from each other by three infinite planes (Hades, Carceri, and Gehenna), why would these races care to confront each other in a futile war for "additional" infinite territory?! Its just absurd. Both Baator and the Abyss are infinite, so why would devils and demons expend energy trying to acquire that which is already possessed?! Even if the Blood War is primary ideological, it still doesn't make sense. Ideologically-based wars are wars for supremacy of ideas, always with a geo-political context in mind, so an infinite Nine Hells and Abyss warring with each other becomes illogical.

 

[The Traveler]

In 2e Kiaranslee was weaker than Orcus, she was a Demipower while Orcus was an Intermediate Power. When Orcus came back as Tenebrous, he went to Arborea and discovered an ancient power called the Last Word. It was something from 2e's recurring Elder Language or Language Primevil which is a language whose words can reshape reality. It gave him the capability to kill Maanzercorian, Primus, Bwimb, the Aztec God Camaxtli and some unidentified goddess named Tomeri. The point was though the Last Word would eventually kill any non-deity level being who wielded it (as Orcus was a deity no longer without it wand), any being could still use it.

Doesn't change the fact that apparently Kiriansalee was either afraid enough of him to run away, or killed by him, as of the 3E Manual of the Planes.