Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Psion]

Re: Re: Thoughts...

Actually, the Forgotten Realms is AFAIK the only setting where this is true.

It's a pretty broad tacit assumption in D&D. Now the old canon suggests that this relationship isn't real-time, i.e., power flows from the faith of followers but slowly fades over time.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Thoughts...

It's a pretty broad tacit assumption in D&D. Now the old canon suggests that this relationship isn't real-time, i.e., power flows from the faith of followers but slowly fades over time.

It's an assumption I've never made, and (again, AFAIK) none of the people I game with make either. The exact nature of the relationship between deities and mortals has always been something for individual DMs to decide; nothing in the rules depends on any one particular interpretation.

 

[Aaron L]

I've never truly liked the idea that gods gain power from thier worshippers. I like my gods like Azathoth.

Azathoth is a god.
Azathoth was a god before worshippers.
Azathoth will be a god after worsippers.
Azathoth does not seek worshippers.
Azathoth does not need worshippers.

A lack or abundance of worshippers doesn't concern Azathoth in the least, and will not change his power.

Now, this doesn't mean I deny the validity of the concept, and U_K's Worshipper Points System is something I really look forward to.

 

[uv23]

Well lets make things a little more complicated, talking out of a 3e perspective for now.

I can't recall exactly what is written in Manual of the Planes but I believe Armies of the Abyss is consistent with it in that the souls of (chaotic) evil mortals wind up in the Abyss. (And likewise the souls of lawful evil mortals in Hell.)

Now that being said, why wouldn't they instead wind up in the domain of the "true" evil god of that campaign? Its yet another confusion. Perhaps the concept of an afterlife and so forth is not tied to gods but instead to more base concepts of heaven and hell and their derivatives.

This is another reason that the whole situation is so complicated, since many equate divinity with the domains of the dead.

No comments on this..?

 

[Desdichado]

Well, I pretty much agreed with it, except the portion of divinity being connected with the domains of the dead. Then again, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that...

 

[hong]

No comments on this..?

Well, it's a bit hard to comment without knowing what the intent of your post is. Is it:
- a description of how things are in your game?
- an editorial of how things should be in the "average" D&D campaign?
- an analysis of possibilities as demarcated by what's given in various sourcebooks?

Besides which, the disposition of gods, demons and such is inherently campaign-dependent. There isn't much scope for saying "no, your setup is wrong", because the game allows lots of options as far as these things are concerned. What sort of comments were you after?

 

[uv23]

Hmm I thought it was pretty clear. Well, as the post stated, why do souls end up in hell/abyss rather than the domain of the gods? It was all question rather than a statement of my campaign. It was in response to some posts earlier in the thread about Asmodeus and ilk not being the "Satan" of campaigns, rather the prime evil god fulfills that role.

 

[Aaron L]

Not all people worship gods. Those who do have a god could go to the plane of thier god upon thier death. Those without a god could go to the plane of thier alignment.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, well that's explained pretty well in Manual of the Planes. Souls could end up in Hell if they are Lawful Evil when they die.

I guess I didn't understand what you meant (or why you thought) that they should go to the domains of their god. Presumably, if they are the same alignment as their god, he's in Hell as well, and that's where his domain is.

Still, regardless of what "canon" says on this issue, even "canon" gives you multiple options. Personally, I prefer to have gods' power be independent of worshippers, only truly exceptional worshippers will go to the gods' domains after death (the rest joining the "faceless masses" in the plane that they would go as a basis of their alignment.) Of course, unless I'm playing Planescape, or a close relative of it, I wouldn't be using the Great Wheel cosmology anyway, and I'm not really a big fan of alignment, if I can find a way to eliminate it...

 

[hong]

Hmm I thought it was pretty clear. Well, as the post stated, why do souls end up in hell/abyss rather than the domain of the gods? It was all question rather than a statement of my campaign. It was in response to some posts earlier in the thread about Asmodeus and ilk not being the "Satan" of campaigns, rather the prime evil god fulfills that role.

They could end up in hell/abyss (if they're evil). They could also end up in the realm of their god. These could be the same destination, or they could be different. The D&D rules would still work, regardless.

The thing is that nothing is "wrong" according to canonical D&D (MotP explicitly states that the destination of souls on death is something for individual DMs to decide -- petitioners, multiple planes, and the Great Wheel are no more a requirement for D&D than your campaign be set in Greyhawk). However, this means that nothing is "right" either, so asking "why do things work like this?" is neither here nor there. Find a setup that's to your taste, and stick to it.