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Wolfspider said:
I agree. But I think that all archdevils and demon princes should be at least demigod status, with lesser deity status (at least) ascribed to beings such as Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles, Orcus, etc.
Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant
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I agree. But I think that all archdevils and demon princes should be at least demigod status, with lesser deity status (at least) ascribed to beings such as Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Mephistopheles, Orcus, etc.
Flexor the Mighty!
18/100 Strength!
I take the postition of devils, demons & daemons from the 1e MOTP. In one paragraph it talks about Set and his position within the Hells. Basically it states that while Set is more powerful than any devil, or even mass groups of devils, withstanding a war against endless devils from every layer of hell would be too much and would divert Set from his true goals. So I assume that most of the gods who reside in the nether realms are more interested in doing something other than conquer the plane they reside on. So I guess that while Asmodeus and the Arch-Devils are "godlike" in power they are not on the level of true divinities. I think the Creature Catalog stats them pretty well in that regard. I'm thinking of restricting priests of these beings to the adept class or a variant of that, or just saying that they can't get spells of over 5th level.
I really wish the folks that read the WOTC boards would let me know when these great conversations are being discussed here....
Anyway, I think a lot of people are being rather small-minded about this "Asmodeus as Overpower" concept.
Although I don't agree with certain aspects of Pramas' Guide to Hell I do think that the general concept of the creation of the Cosmos is sound. In my cosmology, there were three gods that created the two laws that govern the multiverse (assuming you buy into the Planescape stuff), and Asmodeus was one of them. The others would become Primus and whoever really lives at the summit of Mount Celestia. Because they are lawful and arrogant, the three fought and Asmodeus was cast down into Hell. He does not grant spells directly because he cannot... he must use intermediaries for this purpose. While on rare occassions he'll use one of the Lords of the Nine to grant spells, more often than not he makes deals with the gods of Hell and Archeron and Gehenna. They have no idea that he's one of the architects of Creation and are fine with the arrangement since he can act as steward over certain, less important locals. Ultimately, the whole "disbelief" thing falls into place when Asmodeus abandons the few cults he sets up, further establishing the idea that he does not grant spells (whether through the Lords of the Nine or other gods).
My cosmology notwithstanding, the fact that Asmodeus rules an ENTIRE plane of existance that represents an entire ethical and moral concept that, by its very nature, demands hierarchy, means that Asmodeus would have to be an Overpower, or at least equivalent to one. The other Lords would likewise be equivalent to gods in status although they would typically not be capable of granting spells to there servants (unless Asmodeus allowed it). Why aren't there wars in Hell between the Lords and the various gods? There are, they are just not obvious. Entities of this power tend to avoid direct conflict, preferring to use politics, blackmail, and coersion to get their way.
As for Asmodeus being the BBEG in a given homegrown campaign if the idea that he's an Overpower is established... Well, that's a simple one. He doesn't have a big enough foothold because the gods of evil in your homegrown campaign actively do all they can to keep his minions out of way OR (as in my case) there is a pact of non-aggression. There are billions of mortal lives out there. Unlike the gods of specific worlds who have to cultivate a given world, Asmodeus -- as the supreme representative of law and evil (evil with an intellectual center) -- does not have to limit his attention to one world. Furthermore, perhaps due to his unique entrappment in Hell, he cannot do so for an extended period of time.
As for Demogorgon and Orcus and other powers (my term for entities that have a divine status but typically don't grant spells to Clerics), I see them in the same vein. Furthermore, Demogorgon is a true god if he still demands the worship of those Demon-Ray things....
Anyway, I think a lot of people are being rather small-minded about this "Asmodeus as Overpower" concept.
Although I don't agree with certain aspects of Pramas' Guide to Hell I do think that the general concept of the creation of the Cosmos is sound. In my cosmology, there were three gods that created the two laws that govern the multiverse (assuming you buy into the Planescape stuff), and Asmodeus was one of them. The others would become Primus and whoever really lives at the summit of Mount Celestia. Because they are lawful and arrogant, the three fought and Asmodeus was cast down into Hell. He does not grant spells directly because he cannot... he must use intermediaries for this purpose. While on rare occassions he'll use one of the Lords of the Nine to grant spells, more often than not he makes deals with the gods of Hell and Archeron and Gehenna. They have no idea that he's one of the architects of Creation and are fine with the arrangement since he can act as steward over certain, less important locals. Ultimately, the whole "disbelief" thing falls into place when Asmodeus abandons the few cults he sets up, further establishing the idea that he does not grant spells (whether through the Lords of the Nine or other gods).
My cosmology notwithstanding, the fact that Asmodeus rules an ENTIRE plane of existance that represents an entire ethical and moral concept that, by its very nature, demands hierarchy, means that Asmodeus would have to be an Overpower, or at least equivalent to one. The other Lords would likewise be equivalent to gods in status although they would typically not be capable of granting spells to there servants (unless Asmodeus allowed it). Why aren't there wars in Hell between the Lords and the various gods? There are, they are just not obvious. Entities of this power tend to avoid direct conflict, preferring to use politics, blackmail, and coersion to get their way.
As for Asmodeus being the BBEG in a given homegrown campaign if the idea that he's an Overpower is established... Well, that's a simple one. He doesn't have a big enough foothold because the gods of evil in your homegrown campaign actively do all they can to keep his minions out of way OR (as in my case) there is a pact of non-aggression. There are billions of mortal lives out there. Unlike the gods of specific worlds who have to cultivate a given world, Asmodeus -- as the supreme representative of law and evil (evil with an intellectual center) -- does not have to limit his attention to one world. Furthermore, perhaps due to his unique entrappment in Hell, he cannot do so for an extended period of time.
As for Demogorgon and Orcus and other powers (my term for entities that have a divine status but typically don't grant spells to Clerics), I see them in the same vein. Furthermore, Demogorgon is a true god if he still demands the worship of those Demon-Ray things....
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Kaptain_Kantrip said:
Feelings mutual concerning this issue.
2nd Edition ruined the concept of devils as a race. At least it could have left the devilish hierarchy intact.
"Lords of the Nine"...
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
My 2 coppers (Long)...
For what it's worth, here is my take on the situation (admittedly, I haven't had time to thoroughly go through D&Dg or MotP, but have some ideas anyway).
The way I see it, a compromise CAN be reached in which Asmodeus has divine powers without necessarily giving him true divine status.
(Maybe this should go into the housefules forum, but here goes)...
Through whatever rules mechanism you wish to use, certain very powerful beings can gain "control" of an outer (or inner) plane. Said being may control the plane in its entirety or merely a layer. (I would suggest that the appropriate mechanism has something to do with the being's Wisdom - force of its own will and Charisma - ability to impose that will on others - but don't have a great mechanic yet). Doing so takes time (a week? a month? a year? certainly an amount of time that would allow the control attempt to be challenged - see below).
The plane or layer (hereafter simply "plane" for the sake of simplicity) reacts in some ways to the will of the being in control of the layer (i.e., general coloration, temperature, flora and fauna, features, and so forth), though it takes a certain amount of concentration to actually control and shape a certain feature into the plane (i.e., a being in control of a plane may subconsciously change everything to blacks and reds and make the landscape jagged and mountainous, but to create a specific mountain or to make a specific spot red or black takes concentration).
It is possible for multiple beings to gain "control" of a plane or layer simultaneously. The general look of the plane corresponds to the most powerful PRESENT (as in "must be present on the plane," not as in "current/at this time") controller's desires / subconcious controls. A specific, limited area near another controller may shape itself to that controller's subconscious.
"Grabbing control" of a layer at quasi-deity level can be done without alerting anyone. Attempting to "grab" a layer at lesser power level alerts all lesser powers with control of the plane present on the plane at the time of the "grab." (Intermediate and Greater powers are not alerted.) Since it takes time (week/month/year) to "grab" control over a plane, the other powers can react to stop the "grab." Similarly, attempting to grab a level of control that would give the powers of an intermediate deity alerts all intermediate powers on the plane (not greater powers). Attempting to grab a level of control that would give powers of a greater deity alerts all greater powers.
This applies to layers and planes separately - you can grab greater power on a layer without alerting a greater power controlling the whole plane - provided he is on a different layer at the time. You can also try to grab lesser/intermediate/greater power throughout a whole plane - but that alerts all lesser/intermediate/greater powers present on the whole plane.
When in a plane (or layer) that s/he controls, a being is effectively considered a deity, with all attendant powers that come with that status.
When on another layer of the same plane (in this case, plane does not refer to plane/layer), the creature retains its deific status, but has its power level reduced (perhaps knocked down from greater to intermediate, intermediate to lesser, but never less than quasi-deity).
When on an adjacent plane (your cosmology may vary), the power level is knocked down again (though again, never less than quasi-deity). On all other planes, the being is considered a quasi-deity.
IOW, it is not worshippers that grant the being power, but the control of a plane and its attendant energies. However, this power is more limited than that of a "true" deity - the power extends only as far as the plane itself (you may wish to rule that it also allows granting of spells since the granting comes from the god - on the plane - instead of the cleric - in another plane). Specifically, "omniscience" to a being such as Asmodeus applies only to Hell, not to the Prime or any other plane. He may know everything going on in Hell, but relies on lieutenants, spies, and other such things to relay information about what is going on in Greyhawk.
This allows creatures like Asmodeus to wield very real power in their own planes - sufficient power to beat off "true" deities - but still keeps them "under control" so they don't go off and rule the universe.
It also explains the relationship between Asmodeus and other Arch-Devils... Asmodeus might have the control to be a greater power on all of the layers of Hell (the whole plane) but only the layer he is currently on (the 9th) reflects his subconscious. Other demon princes have gained greater power status on other layers (and since they are present there, the layers reflect their aims - e.g. the 7th layer reflects Baalzebub IIRC, while the 8th layer reflects Mephistopheles).
It also explains why some beings have powers across all layers (e.g., Pazuzu - perhaps he grabbed lesser power across the whole plane). Since the demon princes are greater powers on their own layers and intermediate powers everywhere else, they don't worry about Pazuzu - they will always be more powerful then him regardless of the layer they meet on.
Now we have a basis for the wars across the layers of the Hell... the various demon princes all would love to gain greater power control of layers 1-8 since they can do so with out alerting Asmodeus, and then their power will be close to his - they can attempt a grab of the entire plane of Hell itself. The demon princes build armies and war with each other in order to "keep others busy" while they make power grabs. It's awfully tough for a devil prince with lesser power status on a layer to stop another being from grabbing lesser power status when the prince is beset by armies sent by his rival-to-be.
Asmodeus reacts "with extreme prejudice" only if someone makes a grab at the 9th layer or the entirety of Hell, trusting his lieutenants to infight so badly that none of them ever gains control of more than one or two layers tops. He also knows that since he is a greater power throughout the plane and others are greater powers only on their individual layers, he can fight them in layers 1-8 as equals... but they will always be inferior should they assault him on layer 9 (they know this too).
This also gives rise to powers of demon princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Juiblex (one assumes all three are greater powers throughout the entire plane of the Abyss and since their chaotic nature makes it more difficult to summon armies, and there are so many layers to move through/hide in, none has ever managed to remove the other two from control).
It also explains why the devils and demons try to win souls on the prime plane - they can't confront the gods of goodness directly, so they attempt to build their own forces while weakening the armies of "The Enemy."
Finally, you get a rationale for such creatures as the Elemental Princes and Elemental Lords from the inner planes by using this system.
Is it perfect? No. Is it totally codified? No. (I haven't come up with hard rules for exactly how you can even take over a plane.) Might it just manage to walk the lines between those who demand that Asmodeus be a deity himself and those who demand that he not have such power? I think so. I hope so.
Also, anyone else notice that the whole "divine ranks" concept smacks slightly of the old boxed Immortals Rules (gold box) from the mid-80's? I thought the concepts of the gods and the planes as espoused in that work were at least as interesting as those in Planescape (Gods shutting off access to their dimensions entirely in order to conduct their own work and studies? Stupendous!) The adventures written for that set were pretty bad, but I thought the ideas about planar cosmology and divinity were cool.
--The Sigil
For what it's worth, here is my take on the situation (admittedly, I haven't had time to thoroughly go through D&Dg or MotP, but have some ideas anyway).
The way I see it, a compromise CAN be reached in which Asmodeus has divine powers without necessarily giving him true divine status.
(Maybe this should go into the housefules forum, but here goes)...
Through whatever rules mechanism you wish to use, certain very powerful beings can gain "control" of an outer (or inner) plane. Said being may control the plane in its entirety or merely a layer. (I would suggest that the appropriate mechanism has something to do with the being's Wisdom - force of its own will and Charisma - ability to impose that will on others - but don't have a great mechanic yet). Doing so takes time (a week? a month? a year? certainly an amount of time that would allow the control attempt to be challenged - see below).
The plane or layer (hereafter simply "plane" for the sake of simplicity) reacts in some ways to the will of the being in control of the layer (i.e., general coloration, temperature, flora and fauna, features, and so forth), though it takes a certain amount of concentration to actually control and shape a certain feature into the plane (i.e., a being in control of a plane may subconsciously change everything to blacks and reds and make the landscape jagged and mountainous, but to create a specific mountain or to make a specific spot red or black takes concentration).
It is possible for multiple beings to gain "control" of a plane or layer simultaneously. The general look of the plane corresponds to the most powerful PRESENT (as in "must be present on the plane," not as in "current/at this time") controller's desires / subconcious controls. A specific, limited area near another controller may shape itself to that controller's subconscious.
"Grabbing control" of a layer at quasi-deity level can be done without alerting anyone. Attempting to "grab" a layer at lesser power level alerts all lesser powers with control of the plane present on the plane at the time of the "grab." (Intermediate and Greater powers are not alerted.) Since it takes time (week/month/year) to "grab" control over a plane, the other powers can react to stop the "grab." Similarly, attempting to grab a level of control that would give the powers of an intermediate deity alerts all intermediate powers on the plane (not greater powers). Attempting to grab a level of control that would give powers of a greater deity alerts all greater powers.
This applies to layers and planes separately - you can grab greater power on a layer without alerting a greater power controlling the whole plane - provided he is on a different layer at the time. You can also try to grab lesser/intermediate/greater power throughout a whole plane - but that alerts all lesser/intermediate/greater powers present on the whole plane.
When in a plane (or layer) that s/he controls, a being is effectively considered a deity, with all attendant powers that come with that status.
When on another layer of the same plane (in this case, plane does not refer to plane/layer), the creature retains its deific status, but has its power level reduced (perhaps knocked down from greater to intermediate, intermediate to lesser, but never less than quasi-deity).
When on an adjacent plane (your cosmology may vary), the power level is knocked down again (though again, never less than quasi-deity). On all other planes, the being is considered a quasi-deity.
IOW, it is not worshippers that grant the being power, but the control of a plane and its attendant energies. However, this power is more limited than that of a "true" deity - the power extends only as far as the plane itself (you may wish to rule that it also allows granting of spells since the granting comes from the god - on the plane - instead of the cleric - in another plane). Specifically, "omniscience" to a being such as Asmodeus applies only to Hell, not to the Prime or any other plane. He may know everything going on in Hell, but relies on lieutenants, spies, and other such things to relay information about what is going on in Greyhawk.
This allows creatures like Asmodeus to wield very real power in their own planes - sufficient power to beat off "true" deities - but still keeps them "under control" so they don't go off and rule the universe.
It also explains the relationship between Asmodeus and other Arch-Devils... Asmodeus might have the control to be a greater power on all of the layers of Hell (the whole plane) but only the layer he is currently on (the 9th) reflects his subconscious. Other demon princes have gained greater power status on other layers (and since they are present there, the layers reflect their aims - e.g. the 7th layer reflects Baalzebub IIRC, while the 8th layer reflects Mephistopheles).
It also explains why some beings have powers across all layers (e.g., Pazuzu - perhaps he grabbed lesser power across the whole plane). Since the demon princes are greater powers on their own layers and intermediate powers everywhere else, they don't worry about Pazuzu - they will always be more powerful then him regardless of the layer they meet on.
Now we have a basis for the wars across the layers of the Hell... the various demon princes all would love to gain greater power control of layers 1-8 since they can do so with out alerting Asmodeus, and then their power will be close to his - they can attempt a grab of the entire plane of Hell itself. The demon princes build armies and war with each other in order to "keep others busy" while they make power grabs. It's awfully tough for a devil prince with lesser power status on a layer to stop another being from grabbing lesser power status when the prince is beset by armies sent by his rival-to-be.
Asmodeus reacts "with extreme prejudice" only if someone makes a grab at the 9th layer or the entirety of Hell, trusting his lieutenants to infight so badly that none of them ever gains control of more than one or two layers tops. He also knows that since he is a greater power throughout the plane and others are greater powers only on their individual layers, he can fight them in layers 1-8 as equals... but they will always be inferior should they assault him on layer 9 (they know this too).
This also gives rise to powers of demon princes such as Demogorgon, Orcus, and Juiblex (one assumes all three are greater powers throughout the entire plane of the Abyss and since their chaotic nature makes it more difficult to summon armies, and there are so many layers to move through/hide in, none has ever managed to remove the other two from control).
It also explains why the devils and demons try to win souls on the prime plane - they can't confront the gods of goodness directly, so they attempt to build their own forces while weakening the armies of "The Enemy."
Finally, you get a rationale for such creatures as the Elemental Princes and Elemental Lords from the inner planes by using this system.
Is it perfect? No. Is it totally codified? No. (I haven't come up with hard rules for exactly how you can even take over a plane.) Might it just manage to walk the lines between those who demand that Asmodeus be a deity himself and those who demand that he not have such power? I think so. I hope so.
Also, anyone else notice that the whole "divine ranks" concept smacks slightly of the old boxed Immortals Rules (gold box) from the mid-80's? I thought the concepts of the gods and the planes as espoused in that work were at least as interesting as those in Planescape (Gods shutting off access to their dimensions entirely in order to conduct their own work and studies? Stupendous!) The adventures written for that set were pretty bad, but I thought the ideas about planar cosmology and divinity were cool.
--The Sigil
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Well lets make things a little more complicated, talking out of a 3e perspective for now. 
I can't recall exactly what is written in Manual of the Planes but I believe Armies of the Abyss is consistent with it in that the souls of (chaotic) evil mortals wind up in the Abyss. (And likewise the souls of lawful evil mortals in Hell.)
Now that being said, why wouldn't they instead wind up in the domain of the "true" evil god of that campaign? Its yet another confusion. Perhaps the concept of an afterlife and so forth is not tied to gods but instead to more base concepts of heaven and hell and their derivatives.
This is another reason that the whole situation is so complicated, since many equate divinity with the domains of the dead.
I can't recall exactly what is written in Manual of the Planes but I believe Armies of the Abyss is consistent with it in that the souls of (chaotic) evil mortals wind up in the Abyss. (And likewise the souls of lawful evil mortals in Hell.)
Now that being said, why wouldn't they instead wind up in the domain of the "true" evil god of that campaign? Its yet another confusion. Perhaps the concept of an afterlife and so forth is not tied to gods but instead to more base concepts of heaven and hell and their derivatives.
This is another reason that the whole situation is so complicated, since many equate divinity with the domains of the dead.
Desdichado
Hero
Great idea, Sigil. I might just steal this idea!
As to the whole divine ranks idea, I don't like it. I recently posted my review here of Deities & Demigods, and that was one of my main gripes with the book. It really makes divine rank too powerful: too much depends on the divine rank. It'd be tough to create non-divine yet deity level arch-fiends without something that imitated DR, though.
As to the whole divine ranks idea, I don't like it. I recently posted my review here of Deities & Demigods, and that was one of my main gripes with the book. It really makes divine rank too powerful: too much depends on the divine rank. It'd be tough to create non-divine yet deity level arch-fiends without something that imitated DR, though.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Gods are Gods and temples are their homes...
"Where does the ability to grant clerical divine power come from?"
Answer: It comes from the deity a cleric worships.
Question: Where does the power of a deity come from?
Answer: It comes from the worshipers of a deity?
It seems to me that the logical conclusion of all of this is that a cleric ultimately gains his powers from himself (and other members of his flock), with the deity acting as a "focus" for that energy derived from the faith of the followers.
IOW, in canonical D&D, faith is a VERY real power.
Therefore, it stands to reason that if a cleric worships a demon, the demon similarly acts as a focus for the energy derived from the faith of the cleric and others like him.
I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with this. The entire thing stems from the Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms. And to be honest, I'm not comfortable with this because it implies that, ultimately, a cleric is the source of his OWN power. Not a deity. It also makes the goal of a deity rather simplistic, good or evil, lawful or chaotic - the goal is to proselyte for the selfish reason that the deity will gain more power.
This is going counter to 3e canon, but I am going to propose something more along the lines of the Immortals rules... that divinity is something innate to the deity itself, that the deity's power is *not* derived from followers.
Furthermore, there is a reason that deities do not continously fight in the Prime, trying to take it over, and that reason is fairly simple... the reason is the "battle for souls" and the balance that exists in the Prime.
This is going to get quite philosophical here, but please bear with me...
The multiverse of D&D may be said to be shaped by "free will" rather than by elemental forces of good and evil. (I will get back to this in a moment)
The prime material plane is rather unique in that the inhabitants of the prime, by and large, are virile. They are creatures with free-willed souls (as alluded to in raise dead and other spells), and have the capacity to "create" new souls through the process of conception and birth (when a "soul" enters the body thusly created is neither here nor there - let's not turn this into a real-world morals and ethics discussion). A body on the prime material plane is made of equal portions of light/dark, good/evil, water/earth, positive/negative energy, and so on. IOW, all of the elements and energies of the universe are present in balanced proportions. Perhaps this balance is what engenders fertility of the body.
Native inhabitants of the outer planes are, by contrast, semi-sterile... though they can "piggyback" the virility of creatures native to the prime plane (thus resulting in births of half-fiends, half-celestials, et al), demons do not breed with demons. Solars do not breed with solars.
BTW, Elementals are treated similarly... though we rarely think of someone's soul making its way to the elemental planes following death, it is feasible, I suppose.
Given this, creatures truly native to the outer planes can be thought of in one of two ways...
A.) They lack "souls" in the truest sense of the word. They are physical manifestations of pure goodness/evil/law/chaos and nothing more. This makes sense, since they cannot be raised - there is no soul to put back into the slain body. Since they do not have souls, they are incapable of creating new souls (having offspring).
This, however, contradicts the "canon" that souls go to the outer planes and become "petitioners" (or whatever the term is from MotP). This tells me that option A is better-suited for thinking of elementals - they are sentient, physical manifestations of the power of pure element, but are literally soulless creatures (this also explains why most of them tend towards neutrality).
B.) The "outsider" is merely a physical manifestation taken on by a soul that has already exercised its free will (its choices during its "life" on the prime material plane having determined the destination plane at which it arrived). However, this is not the "real" body of the soul but rather a surrogate body, hence a raise dead doesn't work. This requires the belief that one's native/original body and soul are somehow tied together. One of the consequences of using the material of the outer planes to so encase one's soul is the lack of fertility because there is no balance... if I go to Hell, where will I find good "matter" to balance the evil "matter" I am using to create my body in order to give me fertility? I can't - because by definition no such matter exists in Hell!
This seems to me to make a little more sense. It also reinforces the importance of "free will" and explains the battle for souls while refraining from physical battle on the Prime... since evil (and good) cannot increase its numbers on its own (remember, no children), it MUST allow the prime to continue to exist in order to swell its ranks. Because each fiend or celestial is a soul that has taken on physical form using outer planes matter, it is important to both sides to keep "bringing in souls."
Free will becomes all-important... all creatures born into the prime are potential demons or celestials... and this is the sole source of new recruits because the Prime is the sole source of new souls! You can't get more celestials without creatures being born into the Prime plane and choosing to do good. You can't get more devils and demons without creatures being born into the Prime plane and choosing to do evil.
Prime creatures are born in "balance" - it is their own choices that polarize them towards good or evil. However, half-fiends and half-celestials (and other "tainted" creatures) are born "out of balance" - which explains the tendency of half-fiends towards evil (and half-celestials toward good - they are literally physically pre-disposed that way). And only souls in physical "balance" can create new souls (they are fertile). (This means that two half-celestials could not have offspring).
Since choices on the good/evil and law/chaos spheres are FAR more abundant than choices on the earth/air or fire/water spheres, much greater polarization occurs on these axes (and hence you don't see souls going to the elemental planes, though in theory it COULD happen - perhaps the reason there are so few powers on the elemental planes is that there are only a few souls that have made it to the elemental planes, eh?).
Thus, demons and devils never wish to DESTROY the entire Prime, only to CONTROL it, for they know that if they were to destroy the Prime, the influx of souls (which later evolve into devils/demons) would stop. It also explains why gods and celestials and fiends don't just take their war into the prime - it would knock the prime out of balance.
Now let's step back, take a breath, and review. Haven't yet touched on the role of gods, but am getting there.
1.) Only natives of the Prime Material Plane (okay, any Prime Plane) are "balanced." "Balanced" is defined as being made of equal amounts of elemental/good/evil/positive/negative material.
2.) Only creatures "in balance" can have offspring with "souls."
3.) Creatures' souls are polarized toward good/evil/law/chaos based on their choices.
4.) When a creature's soul leaves its body in death, it moves to the outer plane towards which it has been polarized by its choices in life.
5.) Once the soul reaches this outer plane, it is able to use the material of that plane to create a physical form.
6.) Because the material that exists on outer planes are out of balance by definition, souls that take form on those planes are out of balance and therefore infertile.
7.) Therefore, the only place for "recruiting" future devils/demons/celestials is the Prime Material Plane. The balance of the Prime must be protected (even demons and devils respect this) and therefore wars among outer planar factions are kept on the outer planes.
Now, to add to this discussion from my last one, I will add the following points...
8.) Creatures of great willpower and personal force can impose their will on a plane and draw power from that plane. The power comes from the raw energy of good/law/chaos/evil itself.
9.) By harnessing that power, creatures may gain semi-divinity, gaining divine powers on their own plane. They are able to focus the goodness/evil/law/chaos through their own material forms (much as spellcasters learn to channel magic, though on a much greater scale). These creatures are loathe to travel from the realms where they are semi-divine, as they lose their powers quickly in unfamiliar planar environments.
Now, here is where the gods come in...
10.) Some creatures gain such mastery of this power that they are able to actually incorporate this energy into their material forms. They are no longer dependent upon a particular plane over which they can impose their will for energy, as they have literally internalized the energy and made the energy part of themselves. These creatures usually take up residence in areas where similar planar energy is around on general principles (after all, why would a god of goodness and light want to live in a realm of evil and darkness), but because the energy is literally part of them, they are able to travel to other planes with no loss of efficacy. These are the beings commonly referred to as "gods" because of their universality - they can manifest themselves *anywhere* with no loss of efficacy (as compared to a semi-divine being who can only manifest himself in certain places with full efficacy).
And finally, we answer the question of "where do clerics get their powers from?"
Answer: Clerics gain their power from these creatures' investiture of power in the cleric. As part of the process in which they learn to internalize the raw energy of the universe, gods learn to invest that energy anywhere. They reward clerics with an investiture (spells, domain powers, etc.) in order to encourage the clerics to become more like them and to encourage others to follow in the cleric's footsteps.
OPTIONAL Additional Answer: If you wish, you may rule that some portion (from none to all) of semi-divine powers of the planes have gained a level of mastery that allows them to impart powers to their followers... though probably only through proper rituals that allow a focus to be created through the planes.
The classic example for evil is a ritual sacrifice... since souls move across the planes at the time of death, the sacrifice and associated death creates a little bit of a "hole" between planes and the evil associated with the ritual sacrifice creates a focus - hence, a cleric devoted to a demon might have to use a sacrifice so the demon can "locate him" and tie into his location in order to grant him power - this serves the double purpose of allowing the demon to locate the cleric AND polzarize the cleric more fully to evil. Sacrifice might not be optional for investiture of power, but *required*, not only on the part of the cleric wishing to gain power, but the demon wishing to GRANT the power.
I will admit that an analogous example for a "good" focus is a little more difficult to come by... perhaps prayer and sacrifice of wealth or goods or a vow of faithful service?
The reason this is listed as optional is that it allows individual DMs to grant (or not grant) demons, devils, celestials, et al the ability to grant spells and powers to clerical followers on an individual basis!
Orcus and Demogorgon and Asmodeus might be semi-divine powers that have mastered the technique of granting spells without a focus (such as sacrifice), but Moloch and Juiblex might only be good enough to grant spells with that focus, while Tiamat and Pazuzu might not know how to grant spells at all. You literally can make rulings on a case-by-case basis. You could even rule that Yan-C-Bin (Elemental Prince of Evil) knows how to grant spells.
There. All done. Your mileage may vary, but this is how I would suggest handling it in a way that, to me, allows for great flexibility and at the same time has an underlying logic behind it (even if it isn't strictly canonical in that deities no longer rely on worshipers directly for their power - a deity does rely on his worshipers directly for building his "army" of followers in the outer planes, though).
--The Sigil
I deliberately ducked that question, because the question (in my mind) arises,Voadam said:
"Where does the ability to grant clerical divine power come from?"
Answer: It comes from the deity a cleric worships.
Question: Where does the power of a deity come from?
Answer: It comes from the worshipers of a deity?
It seems to me that the logical conclusion of all of this is that a cleric ultimately gains his powers from himself (and other members of his flock), with the deity acting as a "focus" for that energy derived from the faith of the followers.
IOW, in canonical D&D, faith is a VERY real power.
Therefore, it stands to reason that if a cleric worships a demon, the demon similarly acts as a focus for the energy derived from the faith of the cleric and others like him.
I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with this. The entire thing stems from the Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms. And to be honest, I'm not comfortable with this because it implies that, ultimately, a cleric is the source of his OWN power. Not a deity. It also makes the goal of a deity rather simplistic, good or evil, lawful or chaotic - the goal is to proselyte for the selfish reason that the deity will gain more power.
This is going counter to 3e canon, but I am going to propose something more along the lines of the Immortals rules... that divinity is something innate to the deity itself, that the deity's power is *not* derived from followers.
Furthermore, there is a reason that deities do not continously fight in the Prime, trying to take it over, and that reason is fairly simple... the reason is the "battle for souls" and the balance that exists in the Prime.
This is going to get quite philosophical here, but please bear with me...
The multiverse of D&D may be said to be shaped by "free will" rather than by elemental forces of good and evil. (I will get back to this in a moment)
The prime material plane is rather unique in that the inhabitants of the prime, by and large, are virile. They are creatures with free-willed souls (as alluded to in raise dead and other spells), and have the capacity to "create" new souls through the process of conception and birth (when a "soul" enters the body thusly created is neither here nor there - let's not turn this into a real-world morals and ethics discussion). A body on the prime material plane is made of equal portions of light/dark, good/evil, water/earth, positive/negative energy, and so on. IOW, all of the elements and energies of the universe are present in balanced proportions. Perhaps this balance is what engenders fertility of the body.
Native inhabitants of the outer planes are, by contrast, semi-sterile... though they can "piggyback" the virility of creatures native to the prime plane (thus resulting in births of half-fiends, half-celestials, et al), demons do not breed with demons. Solars do not breed with solars.
BTW, Elementals are treated similarly... though we rarely think of someone's soul making its way to the elemental planes following death, it is feasible, I suppose.
Given this, creatures truly native to the outer planes can be thought of in one of two ways...
A.) They lack "souls" in the truest sense of the word. They are physical manifestations of pure goodness/evil/law/chaos and nothing more. This makes sense, since they cannot be raised - there is no soul to put back into the slain body. Since they do not have souls, they are incapable of creating new souls (having offspring).
This, however, contradicts the "canon" that souls go to the outer planes and become "petitioners" (or whatever the term is from MotP). This tells me that option A is better-suited for thinking of elementals - they are sentient, physical manifestations of the power of pure element, but are literally soulless creatures (this also explains why most of them tend towards neutrality).
B.) The "outsider" is merely a physical manifestation taken on by a soul that has already exercised its free will (its choices during its "life" on the prime material plane having determined the destination plane at which it arrived). However, this is not the "real" body of the soul but rather a surrogate body, hence a raise dead doesn't work. This requires the belief that one's native/original body and soul are somehow tied together. One of the consequences of using the material of the outer planes to so encase one's soul is the lack of fertility because there is no balance... if I go to Hell, where will I find good "matter" to balance the evil "matter" I am using to create my body in order to give me fertility? I can't - because by definition no such matter exists in Hell!
This seems to me to make a little more sense. It also reinforces the importance of "free will" and explains the battle for souls while refraining from physical battle on the Prime... since evil (and good) cannot increase its numbers on its own (remember, no children), it MUST allow the prime to continue to exist in order to swell its ranks. Because each fiend or celestial is a soul that has taken on physical form using outer planes matter, it is important to both sides to keep "bringing in souls."
Free will becomes all-important... all creatures born into the prime are potential demons or celestials... and this is the sole source of new recruits because the Prime is the sole source of new souls! You can't get more celestials without creatures being born into the Prime plane and choosing to do good. You can't get more devils and demons without creatures being born into the Prime plane and choosing to do evil.
Prime creatures are born in "balance" - it is their own choices that polarize them towards good or evil. However, half-fiends and half-celestials (and other "tainted" creatures) are born "out of balance" - which explains the tendency of half-fiends towards evil (and half-celestials toward good - they are literally physically pre-disposed that way). And only souls in physical "balance" can create new souls (they are fertile). (This means that two half-celestials could not have offspring).
Since choices on the good/evil and law/chaos spheres are FAR more abundant than choices on the earth/air or fire/water spheres, much greater polarization occurs on these axes (and hence you don't see souls going to the elemental planes, though in theory it COULD happen - perhaps the reason there are so few powers on the elemental planes is that there are only a few souls that have made it to the elemental planes, eh?).
Thus, demons and devils never wish to DESTROY the entire Prime, only to CONTROL it, for they know that if they were to destroy the Prime, the influx of souls (which later evolve into devils/demons) would stop. It also explains why gods and celestials and fiends don't just take their war into the prime - it would knock the prime out of balance.
Now let's step back, take a breath, and review. Haven't yet touched on the role of gods, but am getting there.
1.) Only natives of the Prime Material Plane (okay, any Prime Plane) are "balanced." "Balanced" is defined as being made of equal amounts of elemental/good/evil/positive/negative material.
2.) Only creatures "in balance" can have offspring with "souls."
3.) Creatures' souls are polarized toward good/evil/law/chaos based on their choices.
4.) When a creature's soul leaves its body in death, it moves to the outer plane towards which it has been polarized by its choices in life.
5.) Once the soul reaches this outer plane, it is able to use the material of that plane to create a physical form.
6.) Because the material that exists on outer planes are out of balance by definition, souls that take form on those planes are out of balance and therefore infertile.
7.) Therefore, the only place for "recruiting" future devils/demons/celestials is the Prime Material Plane. The balance of the Prime must be protected (even demons and devils respect this) and therefore wars among outer planar factions are kept on the outer planes.
Now, to add to this discussion from my last one, I will add the following points...
8.) Creatures of great willpower and personal force can impose their will on a plane and draw power from that plane. The power comes from the raw energy of good/law/chaos/evil itself.
9.) By harnessing that power, creatures may gain semi-divinity, gaining divine powers on their own plane. They are able to focus the goodness/evil/law/chaos through their own material forms (much as spellcasters learn to channel magic, though on a much greater scale). These creatures are loathe to travel from the realms where they are semi-divine, as they lose their powers quickly in unfamiliar planar environments.
Now, here is where the gods come in...
10.) Some creatures gain such mastery of this power that they are able to actually incorporate this energy into their material forms. They are no longer dependent upon a particular plane over which they can impose their will for energy, as they have literally internalized the energy and made the energy part of themselves. These creatures usually take up residence in areas where similar planar energy is around on general principles (after all, why would a god of goodness and light want to live in a realm of evil and darkness), but because the energy is literally part of them, they are able to travel to other planes with no loss of efficacy. These are the beings commonly referred to as "gods" because of their universality - they can manifest themselves *anywhere* with no loss of efficacy (as compared to a semi-divine being who can only manifest himself in certain places with full efficacy).
And finally, we answer the question of "where do clerics get their powers from?"
Answer: Clerics gain their power from these creatures' investiture of power in the cleric. As part of the process in which they learn to internalize the raw energy of the universe, gods learn to invest that energy anywhere. They reward clerics with an investiture (spells, domain powers, etc.) in order to encourage the clerics to become more like them and to encourage others to follow in the cleric's footsteps.
OPTIONAL Additional Answer: If you wish, you may rule that some portion (from none to all) of semi-divine powers of the planes have gained a level of mastery that allows them to impart powers to their followers... though probably only through proper rituals that allow a focus to be created through the planes.
The classic example for evil is a ritual sacrifice... since souls move across the planes at the time of death, the sacrifice and associated death creates a little bit of a "hole" between planes and the evil associated with the ritual sacrifice creates a focus - hence, a cleric devoted to a demon might have to use a sacrifice so the demon can "locate him" and tie into his location in order to grant him power - this serves the double purpose of allowing the demon to locate the cleric AND polzarize the cleric more fully to evil. Sacrifice might not be optional for investiture of power, but *required*, not only on the part of the cleric wishing to gain power, but the demon wishing to GRANT the power.
I will admit that an analogous example for a "good" focus is a little more difficult to come by... perhaps prayer and sacrifice of wealth or goods or a vow of faithful service?
The reason this is listed as optional is that it allows individual DMs to grant (or not grant) demons, devils, celestials, et al the ability to grant spells and powers to clerical followers on an individual basis!
Orcus and Demogorgon and Asmodeus might be semi-divine powers that have mastered the technique of granting spells without a focus (such as sacrifice), but Moloch and Juiblex might only be good enough to grant spells with that focus, while Tiamat and Pazuzu might not know how to grant spells at all. You literally can make rulings on a case-by-case basis. You could even rule that Yan-C-Bin (Elemental Prince of Evil) knows how to grant spells.There. All done. Your mileage may vary, but this is how I would suggest handling it in a way that, to me, allows for great flexibility and at the same time has an underlying logic behind it (even if it isn't strictly canonical in that deities no longer rely on worshipers directly for their power - a deity does rely on his worshipers directly for building his "army" of followers in the outer planes, though).
--The Sigil
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