Simon Magalis
First Post
Wow... that is a long post.
Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant
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ruleslawyer
Registered User
Nice as I find your explanation, Sigil, I have to say that I am a big fan of the concept that deities derive their power from their worshipers, and that power comes from faith, precisely because it encourages deific involvement in mortal affairs. If deities derive power from mortal faith, then it is in their interest to encourage that faith, whether through fear, love, or satisfying mortal desires for power. Of course, you can play it your way; DDG even puts forth dependent and independent gods as separate and coeval alternatives.
As for archdevils, demon princes, etc.: I have no problem with the decision that these beings are mere quasi-deities; nor do I think that such a decision was motivated by squeamishness on WotC's part. In fact, I tend to feel the converse; namely, that folks who love to elevate their archfiends in power suffer overmuch from a "Satan must be my archvillain!" attitude that I guess is somewhat understandable, given that most of us are brought up in a predominantly Judeo-Christian culture. IMHO, the idea of making Asmodeus into the Adversary is just too derivative of a certain RL religion to be that interesting to me.
BTW, several authors have suggested ways of dealing with the asymmetry of power between true deities and archdevils; an obvious way is to take into account the fact that the archdevils command massive armies of devils against whom any deity with Hells-conquering ambitions is going to have to waste a lot of power. Slay an individual archdevil? Sure. Conquer the Hells? Not bloody likely.
As for archdevils, demon princes, etc.: I have no problem with the decision that these beings are mere quasi-deities; nor do I think that such a decision was motivated by squeamishness on WotC's part. In fact, I tend to feel the converse; namely, that folks who love to elevate their archfiends in power suffer overmuch from a "Satan must be my archvillain!" attitude that I guess is somewhat understandable, given that most of us are brought up in a predominantly Judeo-Christian culture. IMHO, the idea of making Asmodeus into the Adversary is just too derivative of a certain RL religion to be that interesting to me.
BTW, several authors have suggested ways of dealing with the asymmetry of power between true deities and archdevils; an obvious way is to take into account the fact that the archdevils command massive armies of devils against whom any deity with Hells-conquering ambitions is going to have to waste a lot of power. Slay an individual archdevil? Sure. Conquer the Hells? Not bloody likely.
Sigil... I really liked your argument and proposals. Very thorough. I must say that I'm persuaded to buy it. It sounds somewhat like the stuff I've said although far more diplomatically and... well, better.
For those like me who see Asmodeus as an Overpower, this idea would be an acceptable compromise.... I don't entirely agree with the explanation for the power reduction once he enters the Prime (I like the idea that he's trapped much better) but such an explanation does satisfy questions concerning why the gods put up with these entities, why the other Lords and most Demons don't have worshippers, and why the Blood War rages (although I also think Asmodeus couldn't care less about the War). As I said, I don't agree with the deeper areas of your suggestion but the concept is brilliant.
Most excellent. You ought to try and get that idea published somewhere.
For those like me who see Asmodeus as an Overpower, this idea would be an acceptable compromise.... I don't entirely agree with the explanation for the power reduction once he enters the Prime (I like the idea that he's trapped much better) but such an explanation does satisfy questions concerning why the gods put up with these entities, why the other Lords and most Demons don't have worshippers, and why the Blood War rages (although I also think Asmodeus couldn't care less about the War). As I said, I don't agree with the deeper areas of your suggestion but the concept is brilliant.
Most excellent. You ought to try and get that idea published somewhere.
ruleslawyer said:
Although I can't speak for others, I can say that's not the case for me (not that you're directing your comments in my direction).
My position for Asmodeus as "The Adversary" is based upon a number of premises.
First, it's always been my attitude, since 1ed, that Lawful positions attempt to give rational arguments to moral behavior. Typically Chaos doesn't care, and Neutral just is (or maintains a balance); Lawful, however, needs to have a center and an explanation. Lawful evil, then, should have an ultimate representation in theory that strives to promote Law and Evil simultaneously. Asmodeus would fit this bill. He is The Adversary because he rationalizes Evil and actively pursues it not for its own sake alone, but because he wants to rule. Demogorgon sows evil and pain because he's a huge bully and he can get away with it. Anthraxus is evil because he just is evil. Asmodeus would have a thousand and one rational arguments for why he does it beyond ruling the Cosmos. THAT makes him The Adversary. Supreme? No. The most dangerous? Probably. The only threat? Definitely not.
Second, Asmodeus rules over an ENTIRE plane of existance. Not a realm, not a layer, but an entire plane. This would mean, in my assessment, that he is far more powerful than an Intermediate or Greater god in order to hang on to that power. On the other hand, he is trapped. Yes, this does resemble Judeao-Christian thought, but so what? A lot of D&D is reflective of Dark Age Europe or Middle-Earth (at least until recently) from which many traditional ideas of Satan spring (which are dead wrong... Satan is not, according to a strict reading of the Bible, trapped... but that's another discussion for another day). Furthermore, Satan is not the only deity/god-like entity to be trapped in myth. The Titans were trapped as well. I think this entrapment gives his character more weight and intrigue since a lot of questions could be raised as to why he's trapped, who put him there, and how is he trying to get out.
As for my campaign, Asmodeus has a presence, albeit a minor one. I have my own pantheon of gods with BBEG in it. They concentrate on my world and only get involved in extra-planar stuff on occassion. Asmodeus, on the other hand, transcends one world. Even with the new set-up offered by Manual of the Planes, there are ways for creatures to move from one reality to another but the Planes themselves remain essentially the same. The Nine Hells that exists in FR cosmology exists in Greyhawk's and exists in mine. Asmodeus exists in all of them as well (unless FR decides to write him out... which would make little sense).
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Two parts...
I expect that the "deeper areas" will be a little less palatable to most, because they deal with "where do gods get their power" and, more importantly, "how does a soul work?" Everyone has their own views on that - many centered in RW religion - and these views are so fundamental and probably linked to their RW views that it will be difficult for people to even accept an alternative. These are admittedly VERY sensitive issues and I expect that a lot of people will not be thrilled with my explanation (which is just fine, that's why we have message boards - to exchange ideas, right?).
(BTW, the argument I postulated is only barely similar to my own Real World view, but that's neither here nor there.)
It's another reason I tried to split up the thing into two posts... one more "rules-oriented" (grab power from the planes) and one more philosophically oriented (what are souls and where do deities get their power).
I think the argument in the second post that both good and evil somehow "need" the Prime to build their armies and therefore leave it alone is a little easier for most to swallow (especially given "canonical" D&D cosmology).
You know, you may just see it published somewhere... watch the d20 Publisher's message board tomorrow, in fact.
(hint hint)
--The Sigil
The Serge said:
I expect that the "deeper areas" will be a little less palatable to most, because they deal with "where do gods get their power" and, more importantly, "how does a soul work?" Everyone has their own views on that - many centered in RW religion - and these views are so fundamental and probably linked to their RW views that it will be difficult for people to even accept an alternative. These are admittedly VERY sensitive issues and I expect that a lot of people will not be thrilled with my explanation (which is just fine, that's why we have message boards - to exchange ideas, right?).
(BTW, the argument I postulated is only barely similar to my own Real World view, but that's neither here nor there.)
It's another reason I tried to split up the thing into two posts... one more "rules-oriented" (grab power from the planes) and one more philosophically oriented (what are souls and where do deities get their power).
I think the argument in the second post that both good and evil somehow "need" the Prime to build their armies and therefore leave it alone is a little easier for most to swallow (especially given "canonical" D&D cosmology).
You know, you may just see it published somewhere... watch the d20 Publisher's message board tomorrow, in fact.
(hint hint)--The Sigil
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Thoughts...
I just happen not to be terribly thrilled about it and figured that in addition to trying to figure out how to walk the line for devils between "big ol' outsider" and "honest-to-itself" deity
perhaps I could present an optional interpretation of how gods got to be gods. I will be the first one to say that this view is not necessarily popular or even desirable... it's just an idea I was throwing out there as a possible "non-canonical alternative nature of divinity."
Also, I didn't notice D&Dg presented both dependent and independent options... I have some reading to do tonight. Thanks for your feedback, though... it's good to get dissenting views, too, so you can work on the holes in your ideas.
--The Sigil
I agree... it can absolutely be played as "gods derive power from faith of their followers." Obviously, it can be... it usually is!ruleslawyer said:
I just happen not to be terribly thrilled about it and figured that in addition to trying to figure out how to walk the line for devils between "big ol' outsider" and "honest-to-itself" deity
perhaps I could present an optional interpretation of how gods got to be gods. I will be the first one to say that this view is not necessarily popular or even desirable... it's just an idea I was throwing out there as a possible "non-canonical alternative nature of divinity." Also, I didn't notice D&Dg presented both dependent and independent options... I have some reading to do tonight.
Thanks for your feedback, though... it's good to get dissenting views, too, so you can work on the holes in your ideas. --The Sigil
Desdichado
Hero
Sigil, wonderful concepts. The only problem I can see is that your assumption of deities recieving their power from their worshippers as canonical. Where does it say that (in 3rd edition?) The new Deities & Demigods and the new Manual of the Planes neither one support that as the "official canon" although FR may do so??
Anyway, that's neither here nor there, although deviations from canon are often a bit more difficult to swallow for some players than options that don't contradict canon.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there, although deviations from canon are often a bit more difficult to swallow for some players than options that don't contradict canon.
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