Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant
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Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Russ! 
Its not that they should; but rather that they could!
They have worshippers - that in itself makes them deities already; philosophically at least.
The problem is that in 1st ed. the Demon and Devil rulers were godlike in power; as were Planetars (weak Demigods) and Solars (weak Lesser Gods).
2nd Ed. messed up the continuity of this hierarchy with its two pronged fundamentalist placating silliness by boosting the 'gods' immeasurably while at the same time dwindling the power of infernal and celestial spirits.
In 3rd Ed. the flawed dichotomy seems to be that the celestial and infernal spirits have resumed 2nd Ed. levels of power while the deities have returned to the halcyon days of 1st Ed.
I agree.
I put that sort of question to Gary (Gygax) a while back and he commented that 'good' is not so dominated by selfish intentions as 'evil' - and as such doesn't have the same preponderance for individuality (or words to that effect).
However, there is a capacity for such a hierarchy; even if individuals won't be as forthcoming as with their infernal counterparts.
Manual of the Planes mentions Prince Taliesid and the Five Companions; didn't Planescape mention a Queen of the Eladrin(?) and the Archons certainly have their rulers.
The 'Angels' are therefore generic good outsiders (or good elementals might be a fairer representation); presumably as the Inevitables (from MotP) are generic lawful outsiders.
The Demodands/Gehreleths are the closest things yet revealed to generic evil outsiders and perhaps Hordelings perhaps fulfill the chaos quota - if indeed such a quota has to be met at all!?
There is never going to be a right or wrong way - obviously you can't please all of the people all of the time!
Morrus said:
Its not that they should; but rather that they could!
They have worshippers - that in itself makes them deities already; philosophically at least.
Morrus said:
The problem is that in 1st ed. the Demon and Devil rulers were godlike in power; as were Planetars (weak Demigods) and Solars (weak Lesser Gods).
2nd Ed. messed up the continuity of this hierarchy with its two pronged fundamentalist placating silliness by boosting the 'gods' immeasurably while at the same time dwindling the power of infernal and celestial spirits.
In 3rd Ed. the flawed dichotomy seems to be that the celestial and infernal spirits have resumed 2nd Ed. levels of power while the deities have returned to the halcyon days of 1st Ed.
Morrus said:
I agree.
Morrus said:
I put that sort of question to Gary (Gygax) a while back and he commented that 'good' is not so dominated by selfish intentions as 'evil' - and as such doesn't have the same preponderance for individuality (or words to that effect).
However, there is a capacity for such a hierarchy; even if individuals won't be as forthcoming as with their infernal counterparts.
Manual of the Planes mentions Prince Taliesid and the Five Companions; didn't Planescape mention a Queen of the Eladrin(?) and the Archons certainly have their rulers.
The 'Angels' are therefore generic good outsiders (or good elementals might be a fairer representation); presumably as the Inevitables (from MotP) are generic lawful outsiders.
The Demodands/Gehreleths are the closest things yet revealed to generic evil outsiders and perhaps Hordelings perhaps fulfill the chaos quota - if indeed such a quota has to be met at all!?
Morrus said:That's how my campaign works, anyway. So there!
There is never going to be a right or wrong way - obviously you can't please all of the people all of the time!
Simon Magalis
First Post
The basic problem is that Orcus, Asmodeus, Demogorgon, et. al. have been around almost since the beginning. When they were created, there were no campaign settings, thus there was no need to compare their power to other "gods". The fact that they have been around for so long is also why some feel that they should be more powerful (I happen to agree with this). D&D has simply gone through too many changes to maintain ANY kind of consistancy on the matter. Contributors at WOTC/TSR have come and gone, put their two cents in, contradicted each other, and now we probably can't even name all the sources in which these topics are addressed. Hell, 2nd Ed. in many ways was an effort to do away with the image of 1st Ed. That may really be the central problem here... no matter how cool 3E is, it simply CANNOT merge info from both previous editions into a cohesive whole that makes any sort of sense. Of course, I could be wrong.
Lady Dragon
First Post
Obviously IMO Asmodeus has to be equivelent to a greater god or he would not only have the archdevils to deal with but any evil greater god looking to expand his realm would be come calling.
I think of the Archdevils and Demon princes not as actually deities that can grant spells but equivelent in power just the same.
I also liked the concepts in guide to hell concerning Asmodeous.The king of Hell needs to have the power to back himself up.
I also think that there should be some Name celetials as well with the same status of non spell granting deities so to speak.Perhaps the good ones are not so famous because they don't have the pride of the evil ones making them less likely to search out worshippers anyhow.
I think of the Archdevils and Demon princes not as actually deities that can grant spells but equivelent in power just the same.
I also liked the concepts in guide to hell concerning Asmodeous.The king of Hell needs to have the power to back himself up.
I also think that there should be some Name celetials as well with the same status of non spell granting deities so to speak.Perhaps the good ones are not so famous because they don't have the pride of the evil ones making them less likely to search out worshippers anyhow.
Simon Magalis
First Post
One thing with Asmodeus that is hard to get out of your mind is that he is obviously based on the popularized image of Satan. (Two horns, red skin, sitting at the bottom of... hello... hell?) Since Satan is a pretty big deal in the Christian mythos, it makes sense that alot of folks think he should be a big bad guy.
Tiamat is much the same... she is the precursor to Satan in real world religions. In ancient mythology, Tiamat is the PRIMARY source of chaos and destruction. She is also the only thing that Venger is afraid of.
Tiamat is much the same... she is the precursor to Satan in real world religions. In ancient mythology, Tiamat is the PRIMARY source of chaos and destruction. She is also the only thing that Venger is afraid of.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Wolfspider!
*Passes Will save*
Your Jedi Mind Tricks won't work on me boy!
Possibly "Contradictory" would be easier to 'shoe-in' without explaining myself further...but the remark was made to encapsulate previous editions so I'll be sticking with "anachronistic" for the forseable future.
Wolfspider said:
*Passes Will save*
Your Jedi Mind Tricks won't work on me boy!
Wolfspider said:
Possibly "Contradictory" would be easier to 'shoe-in' without explaining myself further...but the remark was made to encapsulate previous editions so I'll be sticking with "anachronistic" for the forseable future.
Wolfspider
Explorer
Ahhh, I see. My bad. I see what you meant now. Chalk it up to me grading way too many research papers lately.... 
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Simon Magalis!
I could do it* - so you must be wrong!
*In fact I will!
Simon Magalis said:That may really be the central problem here... no matter how cool 3E is, it simply CANNOT merge info from both previous editions into a cohesive whole that makes any sort of sense. Of course, I could be wrong.
I could do it* - so you must be wrong!
*In fact I will!
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Wolfspider mate!
Wolfspider said:
Wolfspider said:Chalk it up to me grading way too many research papers lately....
Voadam
Legend
My main problem is not whether princes are technically gods, my problem is mostly with the cleric aspects.
Cleric of evil god - Spells for you!
Cleric of forces of evil - Spells for you!
Cleric of Orcus - No Spells for you!
Whether top tier fiends are just individually tough fiends or divine is a matter of campaign flavor choice. I just think you should be able to mechanically gain evil power from them either way.
Oh and the old Mayfair games supplement Sentinels has named angels (with class levels to boot). The best part of that book is that while summoning demons is evil, so is summoning angels because you are taking them away from their good jobs and forcing them to do your bidding.
Cleric of evil god - Spells for you!
Cleric of forces of evil - Spells for you!
Cleric of Orcus - No Spells for you!
Whether top tier fiends are just individually tough fiends or divine is a matter of campaign flavor choice. I just think you should be able to mechanically gain evil power from them either way.
Oh and the old Mayfair games supplement Sentinels has named angels (with class levels to boot). The best part of that book is that while summoning demons is evil, so is summoning angels because you are taking them away from their good jobs and forcing them to do your bidding.
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