Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[JohnRTroy]

Let's just say a certain product about dragons declares that, and people usually consider what that guy writes "canon" over other stuff.

 

[Morrus]

I don't see why devils etc. should be deities. People seem to be suggesting that devils are the evil equivalent of good gods - they're not. Evil gods are the evil equivalent of good gods. Devils are the evil equivalent of angels (Solars, what-have-you).

"The Devil" in the game is not Asmodeus, but the primary evil god in your game.

I think the problem is that there are no "named" good outsiders in the game. There should be those that are the good equivalent of the princes (in judeo-christian mythology, for example, we'd be talking the Archangel Gabriel).

That's how my campaign works, anyway. So there!

 

[Mouseferatu]

Let's just say a certain product about dragons declares that, and people usually consider what that guy writes "canon" over other stuff.

Hmm... If you're talking about who I think you're talking about, then I must commit what will, to some, be construed as heresy.

He may have created it, but he don't run the show no more. Canon is what comes from WotC.

Okay, seriously, I'm the last person to claim canon is "unbreakable," and what you describe is certainly a viable setup. But it's not what's in the actual books with the big "D&D" written on 'em.

Morrus, you have a point there. At the same time, though, the dukes and princes have been established as the "rulers" of many of the lower planes. That doesn't mean they have to be the most powerful critter on the plane, but it does mean that, if they aren't, there needs to be a reason why the more powerful critter doesn't take over.

So why, for instance, doesn't Tiamat want to rule the first level of Hell, if Bel isn't at least pretty close to her strength? Seems to me like she's the greedy, conquering sort.

(And yeah, I can think of several reasons. But I wanna know what you think.)

 

[rounser]

I don't see why devils etc. should be deities. People seem to be suggesting that devils are the evil equivalent of good gods - they're not. Evil gods are the evil equivalent of good gods. Devils are the evil equivalent of angels (Solars, what-have-you).

"The Devil" in the game is not Asmodeus, but the primary evil god in your game.

I the confusion is arising from the real world Christian idea of the Devil being the primary evil power, which doesn't sit very well with the idea of entire pantheons of evil gods for specific worlds.

 

[Psion]

"The Devil" in the game is not Asmodeus, but the primary evil god in your game.

Ding ding ding ding! Give that man a prize.

That is precisely why Guide to Hell's "Asmodeus is an overpower" didn't sit well with me. I don't WANT Asmodeus to be the ultimate threat to the universe. I want MY world's bad guy of the moment to be the ultimate threat.

 

[Ron]

Funny, I thought that Asmodeus' origin was, by far, the best part of Guide to Hell as it was the most original piece of that excellent book. I thanks Chris Pramas to that addition, it alone was worthy of the price of the book. Unlike most stuff in Planescape or MotP, the twin serpents account looked like real mythology for me.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the only reason WoTC is saying demons and devils aren't gods and can't grant divine powers to their worshippers is a holdover from 2e, where they were trying to appease Christian fundamentalists and angry mothers by radically altering the very nature of the lower planar fiends into being merely "alien races" rather than 1e's take on them being lesser gods and spiritual/supernatural menaces.

I have always preferred and used the 1e concept of them, including using the Archdevils like Geryon and Moloch that "vanished" from 2e, and none of this "Lords of the Nine" funny business.

 

[Ron]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the only reason WoTC is saying demons and devils aren't gods and can't grant divine powers to their worshippers is a holdover from 2e, where they were trying to appease Christian fundamentalists and angry mothers by radically altering the very nature of the lower planar fiends into being merely "alien races" rather than 1e's take on them being lesser gods and spiritual/supernatural menaces.

Good point. It is really weird to interpret demons and devils as equivalent to planetars and related good outsiders. Unlike the latter, they don't appear to be serving any evil god but rather have their own agenda. I am totally favorable to the idea of upgrading the Lords to divine status.

 

[BronzeDragon]

Wasn't Orcus slain by Kiaransalee?

In 3E canon, let me get my FRCS, she is a Demigod.

So I don't think they will make him anything more than that, unless he has gained a lot of power since returning from the dead in "Lost Gods".

 

[BronzeDragon]

So why, for instance, doesn't Tiamat want to rule the first level of Hell, if Bel isn't at least pretty close to her strength? Seems to me like she's the greedy, conquering sort.

The main reason would be that Tiamat is FAR more interested in conquering the Prime Material Plane worlds, than she is in conquering the first layer of Baator.