Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Skarp Hedin]

BronzeDragon: That was in "Dead Gods", by the good Mr. Cook. It's a great module, I heartily recommend it. Great reading.

I dunno who came up with the idea of Orcus being killed by Kiaransalee, but I didn't much like it. At least he shoulda been killed by someone a bit more big leagues than some Drow demigoddess I'd never heard of until she stabbed ol' Orcus down. I mean, Demogorgon musta been depressed, someone beat him to it.

I'm working on a campaign world now, I'm not sure how I want to handle demons and devils entirely yet. I'm thinking of having a regimented, highly structured good religion on the one hand, and scads of demon cultists (gnolls howling for Yeenoghu in the dark of the moon before obliterating sleeping halfling villages!).. but I haven't decided if I want to make the demon and devil lords divine, semi-divine or non-divine. Hm, I just thought of this: I could do a dualistic system with each side using intermediaries: angels and saints for the good side, demons and devils occupying the same spot on the evil side. Huh.

Anyhow, not a lot of point to this ramble I reckon, since I can see excellent arguments for both sides of the divine/nondivine argument. But I'll leave you with one thought:

Everyone loves demon cultists.

 

[Nightfall]

Well it's certainly concieveable and anyway I don't think the undead cow is going to last much longer. Especially since many of her servants are probably converting to other gods/goddesses. Orcus however, will prevail. I certainly think the majority of Necro fans will agree with me on that.

Btw, Psion/Morrus, I sort of agree with you...but I never have an ULTIMATE evil thing going, just LOTS of evil! But I do think you hit a sore spot in the thinking about Asmodeus to a degree.

Btw, HI there to Mister Mike Gill! Glad you make the plug for the Divine and the Defeated. STILL my favorite God book!

 

[BronzeDragon]

BronzeDragon: That was in "Dead Gods", by the good Mr. Cook. It's a great module, I heartily recommend it. Great reading.

Yep, sorry for misquoting. Must have been with something else in my mind.

I don't actually have the sourcebook, only its prequel, the mega-adventure "The Great Modron March", where Orcus kills Primus, the One and the Prime, and assumes rulership of the Modron race for a while.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

In my game, demon/devil/deamon-lords and many evil outsiders from beyond cosmos or whatever are powerful monsters, that are potentially worth worrying even to deities.

This is because such creatures are sort of wanna-be-gods, and most powerful one of them might be able to steal some god's power if they end up victorius. Some of them have done is in their prior wars in different cosmoses, but instead of becomming true deities, they wished to stay these 'devourers'.

This gives them more power to move, but very limited access to worlds protected by local divane beings whatever evil or good. Some evil creatures like this, actually became more or less loyal generals to local evil deities, probably because it gives them the best shot or is only way to survive.

Demon/devil etc lords are able to grant even great power to those who serve/worship them, but it's path of sacrifises, and in many times this power is in form of arcane magic gift/rituals they teach, or monsterous (if nice seeming) magical alterations, than real divane magic and there is price to pay. Even those monsters with true divane abilites are not likely to grant cleric spells, mainly because they lack finer points of planar connections, that allows divane beings do that from regular non-personal-range.

Such creatures are also typically able to project only small part of their true power into some world or divane ruler's domain, and so they are likely get their ass kicked by most local gods (those few demi-gods being the exception, perhaps). So, they are also limited in how big monsters they can be.

Sometimes though, through some magical catastrophes this balance might break, and these monsters might just gain ability to use their true power. This is something to be feared.

Well, this is how it goes in my game, at least.

 

[Glyfair]

I don't see why devils etc. should be deities. People seem to be suggesting that devils are the evil equivalent of good gods - they're not. Evil gods are the evil equivalent of good gods. Devils are the evil equivalent of angels (Solars, what-have-you).

"The Devil" in the game is not Asmodeus, but the primary evil god in your game.

I think the problem is that there are no "named" good outsiders in the game. There should be those that are the good equivalent of the princes (in judeo-christian mythology, for example, we'd be talking the Archangel Gabriel).

That's how my campaign works, anyway. So there!

I was just recently thinking about how the Demon Lords and Devil Princes work in my mythos. My problem with not making Asmodeus a power on par with some deities is that if he isn't, then the primary evil god in your campaign would normally want to try to use him & the forces of hell for his purposes.

Now there are many variations of evil gods and the top demons and devils. I highly recommend that if your campaign has both, you sit down and decide how they interact. If they don't, why don't they.

Personally, I'm thinking of not having Asmodeus being a deity, but rather being a power on par with some of the deities. Of course, I also decided that the Demon Lords don't grant spells. However, they have clerics who follow them and gain powers under the rules for following a general ethos.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[rounser]

If they don't, why don't they.

Because with one Asmodeus and a multiverse worth of evil gods wanting to chat, he'd be as busy as hell*. You'd have to stat out hundreds of devil secretaries, invent spells like Infernal Call Waiting and his calendar would be so full of plane-trotting "business meetings" that he'd hardly have the time to respond to a summoning, let alone bargain for anyone's soul. Without that kind of devilish recreation, even the King of Hell might suffer from burn out*.

And that's just the lawful evil archfiend - he's organised. Imagine how the poor demon lords must fare when faced with such a busy schedule...

*: Pun fully intended.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

An interesting idea would be to place Asmodeus in a similar function to the Night Hags--all LE souls go to the Hells and the various LE gods of different worlds would have to barter or buy them from Asmodeus...

 

[Mordax]

IMC, high powered demons and devils can reach deity levels of power, without actually being deities.

This is for a few reasons:
- Gods shouldn't be able to screw with Hell generally.
Forget whether Tiamat *does* conquer Hell - if she could, with one head tied behind her back, Asmodeus' office is still a joke.

Same holds true if St. Cuthbert can waltz into Hell at any point, and lay the uncontested smackdown on him. Hell is supposed to be about abandoning all hope - not abanding all hope except for the intervention of ____.

So on their own turf, archfiends have god*like* power.

(The only alternative to that I'd take is, toss out Hell and replace it with the realm of the campaign's major evil deity. I've done that.)

- Archfiends shouldn't be able to mess with the Prime, nor should the depend on worship for power.
This is why Asmodeus shouldn't be an overpower, Orcus shouldn't be a real god, etc., IMO - gods have power over the Prime, and gods derive a lot of power directly from mortals.

Fiends just don't.

- Solars approach rank 1 gods in power, and there's a whole race of 'em.
I don't mind a few unique quasi-mortal beings that are even more powerful.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Sorry I'm late to this party - but the boards have been too busy for me to access these past 24 hours+

Anyway...

Firstly the Demon Princes/Archdukes are (or have the capacity to be) gods. Any being that is worshipped is technically a god. Though in D&D terms a certain amount of worship should be required to produce tangible results. So its anachronistic (for Monte Cook - in recent comments) to state that the Demon Princes are not gods...but they have their worshippers!

Somehow Cthulhu can have cultists and Demigod status whereas Demogorgon can't!?

Somehow Kurtulmak can be worshipped by kobolds and be considered an Intermediate God whereas Yeenoghu, worshipped by gnolls, can't!?

Blatant double standards everywhere you turn! The only possible explanation being either a conscious or subconscious throwback to the flawed 2nd Ed. code of ethics.

A second problem arises when you muck about with the Outer Planes hierarchy as presented in 1st ed. Namely how would such beings, if mere Quasi/Hero-deities, repel 'true' deities - especially Intermediate and Greater Powers; from usurping their realms? Answer - they couldn't!? The Demon Princes and Archdevils would become mere puppets dancing to the tune of superior infernal masters (namely the gods) - which is fair enough in itself but not really representative of the might and majesty previously conveyed in 1st Ed.

Hi Chris!

This seems to be one of the personal preference issues. When I was playtesting the Epic Level book, my party killed Orcus and Demogorgon in an afternoon. We were 25th level and we just killed two demon princes. It found the whole thing rather lame.

Out of context; simply fighting Demogorgon or Orcus would be lame - I agree.

Regarding the fact that a party of 25th-level characters were able to beat them shows a severe disrespect for the power such beings (should) command - no doubt represented by fledgeling statistics.

Didn't someone intimate that during d20 Call of Cthulhu (D&D phase) playtesting that Cthulhu killed 13 20th-level characters before being merely banished!

Are we therefore to assume that Demogorgon and Orcus are represented as not much better than Solars - if so; why were you surprised when the 25th-level party defeated them?

 

[Wolfspider]

So its anachronistic (for Monte Cook - in recent comments) to state that the Demon Princes are not gods...but they have their worshippers!

"Anachronistic" isn't the word you're looking for here, I think. "Contradictory," perhaps? "Erroneous"? I dunno.