Asmodeus ~ 2nd Ed. concept no longer relevant

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Besides, Jubilex is definitely the god level power of the abyss, nothing says worship-worthy deity like a towering column of ooze, unless it is an overgrown fungus mold (Zuggtmoy).

Preach on! Zuggtmoy and Jubilex will rule all!!!!!

 

[Pramas]

The concept from Guide to Hell what terrible for a number of reasons. Asmodeus was made a greater god (which in 2nd Ed. was both omnipotent and omniscient) while the other Lords of the Nine were little more powerful than Pit Fiends, their stats simply reprinted from 1st Ed. sourcebooks!

That was a poorly done work with little insight. The whole Jazirian/Ahriman concept seemed thrown together overnight.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion on the Guide to Hell, I can assure you of two things: the Jazirian/Ahriman concept was not thrown together overnight and the stats for the Lords of the Nine were not reprinted from 1E sourcebooks.

My reason for rethinking the role of Asmodeus in the universe is that I thought it was lame to have the King of Hell as just another monster. I wanted to make him into a real Adversary, a power who was actually a threat to the multiverse. That seemed a whole lot more mythic to me than "Asmodeus has a rod and you can kill him in Hell." You might not like it, but I spent a great deal of time considering how to turn Asmodeus from king badass into a true King of Hell. It remains my favorite part of the book because it's the one spot that wasn't completely derivitve of older products (and to be clear, my marching orders were to take Planescape material and rewrite it for "core" D&D players).

As for the stats of the Lords of the Nine, they were based on both 1E stats, and 2E stats that appeared in a Colin McComb authored article in Dragon. However, none of them were a straight reprint. If I had been able to call the shots, I would have done what I later did in Legions of Hell: no stats for the Lords of the Nine at all.

This seems to be one of the personal preference issues. When I was playtesting the Epic Level book, my party killed Orcus and Demogorgon in an afternoon. We were 25th level and we just killed two demon princes. It found the whole thing rather lame.

 

[Grazzt]

However, none of them were a straight reprint. If I had been able to call the shots, I would have done what I later did in Legions of Hell: no stats for the Lords of the Nine at all.

I believe ya have to stat the arch-devils and demon lords now...I mean WotC statted the gods, so ya have to stat the devils/demons. Just wouldn't be right (though I really liked your stuff in LoH though).

I mean, players scream about having stats/not having stats for gods. I am sure they do/will do the same for the demons/arch-devils.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

This seems to be one of the personal preference issues. When I was playtesting the Epic Level book, my party killed Orcus and Demogorgon in an afternoon. We were 25th level and we just killed two demon princes. It found the whole thing rather lame.

Munchkins everywhere are licking thier lips now! Just think of what they can do at 40th level! The Monster Manual III, I mean Dieties & Demigods will come in handy I guess.

 

[Erik Mona]

>>>
I was happy to see domain writeups for Demon Princes in AoA. I also thought it was slick/convenient that they essentially made princes "statless" (i.e., divine) and lords confrontable. The best of both worlds.
>>>

Why, Psion, you are a man of remarkably good taste.

--Erik

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

>>>
I was happy to see domain writeups for Demon Princes in AoA. I also thought it was slick/convenient that they essentially made princes "statless" (i.e., divine) and lords confrontable. The best of both worlds.
>>>

Why, Psion, you are a man of remarkably good taste.

--Erik

I wanted stats....

 

[Glaurung]

I'm kind of ambivalent about stats for uber-powerful demons and gods, although Divine and Defeated (shameless plug here) and Dieties and Demigods hae shown that it can be done well. I guess with the new epics rules coming out and the ability to play dieties, such entities should be detailed as players may very well encounter them.

Now as for the status of arch-devils and demon princes, I see no reason these beings can't be quasi-dieties or even true dieties. I really like the idea of Asmodeus from the GtH (even if it was a bit insulting as an athiest), but it really didn't mesh too well with all the other creation mythologies out there. I would place Asmodeus at about the power of a lesser god, with the others being either demigods or quasi-dieties. Remember, they were powerful enough to banish Gargauth, the 10th lord of the nine, from hell and he is a demipower. It takes a very powerful being (at least a quasi-diety) to rule an entire level of a plane, not many gods are even up to the feat.

-Michael Gill

 

[JohnRTroy]

About Tiamat

She's on the Ninth Plane of Hell now, with Baal Shiraut as her consort and steward.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Re: About Tiamat

She's on the Ninth Plane of Hell now, with Baal Shiraut as her consort and steward.

Umm... Is this a joke or a reference that I'm missing? 'cuz according to MotP and D&Dg, she's still guarding the first layer of Hell, and she's not even the lord of it.

I never saw how the dukes and princes were handled in 2nd edition myself; I missed most of the relevant products, I'm afraid. I happen to agree that the dukes and the princes really ought to be at least semi-divine. After all, they have to rule entire layers of planes (some of which have actual deities living on them). Plus let's remember that they're actually known wider than many of the gods. (I've played in lots of D&D campaigns that didn't acknowledge Pelor, but very few that didn't acknowledge Asmodeus or Demogorgon.) And I happen to feel they should be able to grant spells to worshippers.

But, all that aside, I also trust Monte when it comes to most elements of the game, even if his style and mine differ in many respects. So let's see what he's got cooking (no pun intended).

And Monte? If we're getting Asmodeus and Demogorgon and all those nifties, are we also getting Anthraxus back? Pretty please?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Oh, and all you poor deluded fools who cannot see the preeminence of the Two-Headed One in the Abyssal heirarchy will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes...