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Assassin Feedback

NMcCoy

Explorer
Neonchameleon said:
8: Was the intent for any or all of precision darts, bolas takedown, and unarmed throw to gain the bonus damage from Attack Finesse. And if they do do they also gain the enhancement bonus?
Yes, and yes.
Problem: This is not how the current rules work, with regard to extra damage and damage rolls. Attack Finesse is classified as "extra damage" in the Assassin playtest document.
Compendium: Extra damage is always in addition to other damage. This means an attack that deals no damage can’t deal extra damage.
Furthermore, I believe it's been established (in a recent rules update or FAQ, to deal with the Magic Missile/Inescapable Force problem) that extra damage does not turn a non-rolled damage expression into a damage roll, so even in the case of Precision Dart, which would get the Attack Finesse extra damage, you wouldn't add the enhancement bonus.
 

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Since humans specifically get an at-will attack power, or heroic effort, they would have to go with heroic effort since the executioner subclass doesn't offer at-will attack powers (just like the knight doesn't get a third stance).

It appears that humans executioner can take an extra at-will attack power, just not one from the executioner list. The phrasing of the human ability is this:

Bonus At-Will Power: You know one extra 1st level at-will attack power from your class.

As far as I can see there's nothing stopping a human executioner assassin taking an assassin 1st-level at-will from the earlier assassin articles. They are members of the assassin class after all.

There was a Char-Op Thread about this on the Wizards boards with a quote confirming it from a WotC employee. Of course, being the Char-Op thread it immediately went into discussing the half-elf.

If someone manages to make a broken build out of this or the other Essentials classes I expect to it nerfed.
 
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RodneyThompson

First Post
Problem: This is not how the current rules work, with regard to extra damage and damage rolls. Attack Finesse is classified as "extra damage" in the Assassin playtest document.

I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to the "using Dex for attacks" part of Attack Finesse, not the damage bonus. That was my mistake for misreading your question.

The extra damage follows all existing extra damage rules. If you don't deal damage, you don't get extra damage.
 

RodneyThompson

First Post
d6 -> 3.5 on average. d12 -> 6.5. ~3 rather than 2.5. (Rapier and longsword are both d8, meaning 2 for each of them - still nice for a feat). To me the part that matters is that they make the Kukri attack irrelevant. Either you can charge for a [2*d6] attack with a kukri having gone to the trouble to use one of your scarce At Wills, or you can charge for a [d12, Brutal 2] with an executioner's axe with the same to hit score, more average damage, and a much better melee basic attack the rest of the time.

Actually, Brutal 1 adds an additional .5 to the average damage, hence d6 -> 4 damage on average, fullblade is d12 -> 6.5 average damage. Now, if you want to talk about the executioner's axe, that's a bigger difference, since it's Brutal 2 that puts it at 7.5 average damage, but of course kukri lunge is already at 8 average damage as well, so you can see where it edges out the executioner's axe by .5 on charges. And while all the points you make about the executioner's axe are true, you have spent a feat at that point to get that, and probably didn't pick kukri lunge as your first at-will.

My Bravura Warlord carries his dynamic longsword round his wrist as a garrote most of the time (and his summoned scale armour ... elsewhere). And once steel is drawn and the fight is on, subtlety loses to speed of assassination. People are already alerted by the clash of sword on sword, and the best way you can alert as few people as possible is to make it as fast as possible.

Right--and your warlord pays the opportunity cost for having those enchantments on those weapons. You've made that choice, and it's fine--but that doesn't mean that another option is automatically worse.

To use an analogy, your approach to assassin weapons for adventurers appears to resemble trying to use desert camoflague in the jungle.

I think you're really relying on some very meta assumptions there. To be honest, I am not going to argue this point. I feel like there's a lot more to blending in as an assassin outside of when you're hanging out with your fellow adventurers, such as when you're trying to blend in with the servants to slip into a nobleman's bedroom or walk into a prison to meet with a prisoner.
 

Artoomis

First Post
Moridin,

Since you are kind enough to be here:

Any chance of getting the "Ki Focus" rules fixed (see post number 1 for the issue and what I think is a good start on the fix)?
 

Mika

First Post
They'd have to let an Executioner Assassin take any of the other Assassin at-wills. Otherwise, Human Assassins have no 3rd at-will to take.

But with the availability of Heroic Effort as a human racial power alternative to the third at-will power, it is not absolutely necessary to make a third at-will available to the Essentials assassin -- and in fact they do not have standard at-will attack powers. So, like the human Knight, Slayer, and Thief, the human Executioner Assassin is forced to take Heroic Effort.

Also, it is not clear to me that there is any problem with the ki focus wording. So what if the Essentials Assassin class has no implement attacks? That is simply the opposite problem from the Monk class, and both classes are described as being able to use ki focuses with both implement and weapon attacks.
 


Obryn

Hero
So, one of my players made a Human Executioner Assassin (Athasian Minstrel) tonight, and it looks damn impressive so far. Time will tell how he actually works out, but I hope to have some playtest feedback starting next week.

He went with the League of Whispers options, which are pretty badass. Absent an official answer - and probably allowing it regardless, because I see no balance issues with it - he picked up three At-Wills: Bola Takedown, Precision Dart, and Unerring Shuriken. The last promises to be used a lot. Otherwise, he picked up a Rapier, Master of Weapons, and Weapon Focus: Light Blades. Poisons were the Carrion Crawler juice and Ungol Dust.

I'm interested to see how this works out!

-O
 

beepeearr

First Post
I like the poison use as daily, and death attack, and assassin's strike is fine as well. Attack finesse seems pretty powerful when compared to non-essential strikers, so curious to see what happens there what with the changes to sneak attack.

But some of the at-wills just seem really really limited for the most part, and kind of out of place as at wills.

As encounter powers I think they would be really nice though. Maybe boost them a bit and create a pool of encounter powers to choose from including assassin's strike as the weapon choice free option. Then allow you to choose a different option periodically roughly around the same levels as power strike or back stab. This might throw off the balance of the class by giving him access to more then one encounter power per encounter, but maybe still restrict him to only using one of them per encounter, kind of like channel divinity powers.

This way they become more like finishing moves then spams. It seems a little weird to require a class to be switching weapons every time he wants to use a different at will, but fine once or twice an encounter.

the powers them selves seem ok if a bit strong for at wills

Kurki lunge is worded a bit odd as per the normal rules, technically you can't use it since it requires a standard action to use, and a charge also requires a standard action. The power itself as written doesn't allow the assassin to charge only use this power instead of a basic attack. Seems it would need either an effect line: charge a target or something, or to change the action to free with a trigger of when charging and wielding a kukri since it can't be used without charging anyway.

Maybe replace the weapon restricted at wills with at wills that allow the assassin to do things like

When charging the assassin does not have to take the most direct route to its target

when bull rushing the assassin uses dex instead of strength and can slide instead of push, and makes the target prone with a success

When grabbing the target takes a –4 penalty to escape checks to escape, and cannot speak, shout, or make other vocalizations as long as it is grabbed

On a successful ranged attack you can choose to knock a target prone and dazed (meaning they can either stand up or crawl away) instead of dealing your normal damage

On a successful ranged attack you can choose to have a creature fail it's next save but only deal your Dexterity modifier in damage with the attack.

Your ranged attacks don't provoke OA's

you can shift two squares either before or after an attack.

You can move your speed after a hit

Some of these are intended to match up with the original feats, and work with the MBA spamming of martial classes we've seen so far.

The Weapon specific Encounter's could look something like this

Unerring Shuriken, a stance power that grants a +2 to hit, +1d6 per damage and scales up (much slower, since it's a stance)

Kurki lunge, stance +1d6 damage, +2d6 on charges and scales up (much slower, since it's a stance)

Precision dart +4 to hit, full damage, target suffers double the effect of failed saves until it's next made save, scales up by applying a penalty to saves at higher level.

And this post is huge so I'll stop there. I like the idea of the assassin having weapon specific attacks, I just think it might be cooler if they were more along the lines of encounter power strength, allowing the assassins at wills to be less restricted
 
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I don't have the PDF open right now, but I remember there was some rule on poisoning someone by putting the poison in his food or drink. IIRC, the effect was inflicting damage equal to 1/2 it's bloodied value.

That kinda feels like you could never poison someone (other then a Minion, perhaps?) and kill him with the poison. Does this feel "right" to you?

I mean, maybe there is a valid concern that it would invite abuse and Assassins constantly trying to poison the water sources dungeons use or that it somehow could be used against the PCs or something like that, but it just doesn't "work" for me as an excuse. If you really have access to the food source of someone you really care to kill, I think it's okay if you get to kill him by it.

Maybe there could be something like: "Victim makes an Endurance Check" or "Attack vs Fortitude" to really cause death...
 

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