D&D 5E Assassinate

[Paraxis]

There is no doubt that everybody rolls initiative even those who are surprised.

What I don't agree with is the interpretation which reads, "that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet." doesn't include people who have not acted on their turn. If you can not act on your turn, then I say your turn has not been taken, it has in fact been skipped.

Furthermore, at no point do the rules say that a creature is no longer surprised before the next opportunity they have to take a turn. It even specifies that they can not take reactions until their next turn.

From the section on surprise.

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends."

Your first turn is spent not doing anything, but it is very clearly you taking a turn in the combat.

They can take reactions when their very first turn (the one they can't take actions on or move) is over.

Once they can take reactions they are no longer surprised, because they can react to things.

It never says until you take your first actions or similar wording, you have a turn you are just surprised this could be on a very high initiative before any of the other combatants.

 

[garnuk]

You can't take an action, therefore you have not taken a turn. It's very simple.

Not only does it make more sense that way, but it plays smoother that way, and it doesn't lead to any complications that way.

Your way of reading it breaks the narrative, makes the game more complicated, and needlessly nerfs an already very situational ability due to a die roll that is never explicitly called out as being able to nerf that ability.

 

[Celtavian]

I believe the intent of the rule is that not taking actions or a move is the same as not taking a turn. That is how I run it. That is how I believe it should be run. When you are surprised, you basically get to do nothing which is the 5E equivalent of "not taking a turn" for the purpose of Assassinate. I will not run it any other way until I hear an official reason with a fictional explanation as to why surprise should work otherwise.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I'm also in the camp that says if an enemy is Surprised, the Assassin will get one attack with Advantage and auto-crit... then in the next round if his initiative is higher will get that second attack with Advantage. If his init was lower though and the enemy got to act at the top of that round first, then no second round of Advantage for the Assassin.

I agree with this. Seems like a nerf of Assassinate if you go through all the trouble to get surprise on a creature but then can't pull it off because of a die roll.

 

[Hriston]

Read the Combat Step by Step sidebar on page 189 of the PH, especially points 4 and 5. Point 4 says that each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. There's no exception for being surprised.

Point 5 says the round ends when everyone has had a turn. If surprised combatants were deprived of taking a turn, the first round would never end.

 

[garnuk]

Read the Combat Step by Step sidebar on page 189 of the PH, especially points 4 and 5. Point 4 says that each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. There's no exception for being surprised.

Point 5 says the round ends when everyone has had a turn. If surprised combatants were deprived of taking a turn, the first round would never end.

Unless you can show me where it's clear that you can take a turn without taking any action, I'm not going to change my mind. Not have a turn, or had, or happen upon, or given, or experience a turn, but take a turn without being able to take any actions.

 

[Hriston]

It isn't a nerf. Assassinate is meant to operate under the same conditions you need to attack a creature when it is surprised, that is you need to beat its initiative. As I said up-thread you don't need surprise to get advantage on the attack. You only need surprise for the auto-crit. However, both require that you beat the target's initiative with the attack. This shouldn't be too hard for a class that maxes dex.

 

[Hriston]

Unless you can show me where it's clear that you can take a turn without taking any action, I'm not going to change my mind. Not have a turn, or had, or happen upon, or given, or experience a turn, but take a turn without being able to take any actions.

Wow. I really don't know how it could be any clearer. You must not be trying very hard.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

It seems like a nerf to me. Let's say I've got an assassin archer with Sharpshooter and he is perched, hidden in shadow, 300' away from an unsuspecting target, intending to shoot him with his bow. The target's passive perception is hopelessly outclassed by the assassin's stealth check. Okay, roll initiative! The assassin rolls badly, getting a 12, but the target rolls a 14, even though he's blind and crippled in one leg. At 14 the target gets its' 'turn' and at 12 the assassin fires, easily hitting.

In this circumstance, somehow, the assassin fails to get the critical his class ability gives him, however. Even though the target was never aware of the threat until the assassin fired. Not because an opposed Stealth/Perception check or any other reasonable game mechanic. Nope. It's because he took a shot in some existential fragment of time that denied him the benefit of the core mechanic of his class.

 

[garnuk]

Read the Combat Step by Step sidebar on page 189 of the PH, especially points 4 and 5. Point 4 says that each participant in the battle takes a turn in initiative order. There's no exception for being surprised.

Point 5 says the round ends when everyone has had a turn. If surprised combatants were deprived of taking a turn, the first round would never end.

I'll try this one more time.

Point 4 says that everyone is allowed to *TAKE* a turn.

Point 5 says that once everyone has *HAD* a turn.

It does not say, "once everyone has *TAKEN* a turn".

The Assassinate ability, requires a creature to have *TAKEN* a turn... Not *HAD* a turn, or *HAVE* a turn, but to actually go out and *TAKE* it. As in the phrase *TAKE AN ACTION*

Not sure how it can be more clear.

Consider the following sentences:
I had a turn, and I took it.
I had a turn, but I didn't take it.
I have a turn, but I can't take it.
I have a turn but I can't have it.
I had a turn and I had it.

Notice how some of those sentences are redundant/ make no sense, but others are not. Thats because Having a turn, and Taking a turn are not the same thing.