D&D 5E Assassinate

[epithet]

In your games, how do you narrate the inability to move or act if it is not that the person is surprised? How does it make sense in the fiction for the assassin to auto-crit if the target is able to react normally?

Alright, but how, in your opinion, do the mechanics not serve the narrative the way I interpret them? How do they form an "unnecessarily restrictive framework"?

If the PC triest to use a reaction before his turn, "[Character] has his head up his ass and isn't completely aware of what's going on around him, since he was totally surprised. You aren't able to react to that."

On the surprised PC's turn, "You were totally surprised by [event], so all you can do on your turn is to regain your bearings enough to react to whatever happens next."

In the case of assassinate, that's simple: the assassin goes first. Exactly how the assassin goes first will depend on the narrative--we're gonna role play that out. It might be a held attack to strike at just the right moment, it might be something else, but in any case it will serve the narrative. There's no way for a target to "take a turn in the combat" before the assassin starts the combat with an attack.

In the way you interpret the rules, combat begins when you roll initiative. That means, to you, that if nothing happens for the next 6 seconds and a hidden assassin remains hidden, he's nevertheless lost the benefit of surprise. When he does ultimately attack 12 seconds later, 2 turns "in combat" have already passed, the unsuspecting guard can move and act normally, and the assassin does not get an auto-crit. Instead of looking to the narrative to guide your ruling on surprise, you have parsed the rules down to what is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily restrictive framework within which you vest control over the surprise mechanic.

From a narrative sense, even after initiative is rolled, as long as the assassin keeps making any necessary stealth checks and his target is not aware of any threat to the target's safety, then when the assassin strikes - whenever the assassin strikes - the target will be surprised. Your narrow interpretation of the rules means that an ambush is fundamentally impossible, because you've said you have to roll initiative when the ambushers see the targets, and if the ambushers wait until the targets are in position, holding their actions to launch arrows or roll boulders over the cliff when the PCs are just in the right spot, they have lost the mechanical benefit of surprise.

Surprise has to be flexible to serve the narrative. For example, I've let a paladin use an athletics check instead of a stealth check to determine surprise, because the paladin was bursting forth from total concealment to make his attack. You've got to be able to say "Yeah, that could surprise the hell out of someone" and go with it, and not prioritize rules over rulings.

 

[Arial Black]

"If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action". The implication of this is that if you can move or take an action then you are not surprised.

A Petrified creature cannot move or take an action.

Therefore, the implication of this is that if you can move or take an action then you are not petrified.

And, if 'being unable to move or take an action' EQUALS 'surprised', by the same logic it also equals Petrified.

Therefore, 'surprised' EQUALS Petrified.

Have you noticed that something is wrong?

'Speeding' gets you a fine, but getting fined is not equal to speeding.

On p189, under the heading 'Surprise', there are a lot of words, but actually only three actual rules:-

* the DM determines who might be surprised

* any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised

* if you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends

The first rule tells us who determines surprise.

The second rule defines surprise.

The third rule shows a consequence of being surprised.

We can do the same with the speeding example:-

* the government decides what the speed limit on any particular stretch of road might be

* anyone driving a vehicle over that limit is defined as 'speeding'

* if you are 'speeding', you will get a fine

'Driving over the speed limit' defines 'speeding'. 'Not noticing a threat' defines 'surprise'.

'Getting a fine for speeding' does not define 'speeding', and the moment you pay the fine is unrelated to your speed at the moment you pay it.

'Being unable to move or take an action' does not define 'surprised', and the moment you can act is unrelated to you noticing a threat.

Not noticing a threat causes you to be unable to move or take actions until the end of your first turn. Which of these would you call "being surprised"?

Not noticing a threat.

The rules say exactly this: "If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends." Which is exactly what I said. The thing that happens if a creature is surprised (being unable to act or move), ceases to happen at the end of its turn.

This is like saying your car slows down as soon as you pay the speeding fine, but you are actually driving over the speed limit for every moment until the fine is paid.

There is absolutely no rule that links the moment you pay the penalty for being surprised as the moment you stop being surprised.

This mechanical penalty, as you conceive it, seems rather disassociated from the fictional conditions it is supposed to simulate. Are we to imagine our characters waiting for their time in the penalty box to be up because they have transgressed against the commandment, "Thou shalt notice a threat"?

If you are in combat (that is, if you have rolled initiative and now have Turns) you absolutely must use Actions In Combat in order to Do Stuff. If you are not in combat then there are no turns, no Actions In Combat.

When you are in combat, this doesn't mean that everyone else is. The moment you are threatened, whether you notice it or not, is the moment you start being 'in combat', start having Turns and begin having to use Actions In Combat to Do Stuff.

If you do notice that threat, then you start using your Actions In Combat as soon as your turn comes round, just like everyone else. If you don't notice a threat then you are caught flat-footed (for want of a better phrase); caught off-guard, on your heels, certainly not instantly acting as if you are in combat, because the whole combat came as a *ahem* surprise!

How long do you think the "start of the encounter" lasts? That's the period of time in which you are surprised if you don't notice a threat.

Although the section is written from the POV of the beginning of the encounter (fair enough; every encounter has a beginning and you need to know what to do), and the DM must therefore determine surprise at the start of the encounter, 'surprise' is not limited to the start of the encounter.

How do we know this? Because one of the effects of being surprised is that you cannot act on your first turn. Not the first turn of the encounter, but the first turn that you will have in the encounter.

Usually, this first turn will be in round 1, just like everybody else, so it usually doesn't make a difference. But it is perfectly possible that your first turn is not the first turn of the encounter. You could have been engrossed in a grimoire, not in combat, not having an initiative score, not having a turn and not requiring Actions In Combat to Do Stuff, while unknown to you there has been a fight raging for several rounds. When they finally burst in to your room, you may or may not be surprised. You roll initiative and are now 'in combat', whether you've noticed it or not.

Even though this is round 6 and not the 'start of the encounter', you can still be surprised. If you are, you cannot act on your first turn. This shows that you certainly can be surprised, even after the 'encounter' has already started.

...allow me to explain without any reference to the word "surprise". Your reaction speed (i.e. your initiative) measures not only how quickly the actions you take are resolved, but also how quickly you recover from being unable to move or act due to having not noticed a threat.

Agreed, but your initiative score does not help you actually notice a threat. Conceptually, you can only react to a threat once you notice a threat, and having the reactions of The Flash does not give you the senses of Daredevil.

For example, a wizard who has thus recovered may cast Shield in response to an attack that will hit him, regardless of whether the attacker had previously been noticed, whereas a wizard who hasn't yet recovered could not cast his spell.

Being able to use reactions does not give you the ability to target creatures or attacks that you don't know about. Shield doesn't manipulate time; it doesn't conceptually let you get hit, take horrible amounts of damage, cast the spell, go back in time(!) and change the past so that you never got hit! Conceptually, you throw up a mystical shield at the last moment to protect yourself from an attack that would hit you if you don't. This requires you to be aware of the attack.

If the wizard was being shot from hiding, was surprised, but rolled a higher initiative than his attacker, he cannot throw up a shield to block an attack he knows nothing about.

That isn't always the case though. In the example given above where an already raging combat bursts into the wizards chamber, whether or not the wizard is surprised depends on whether or not he notices the threat. Does he notice the door creaking? Did he hear the clash of swords? These things depend on his Perception, not his initiative. If he is surprised, then he remains surprised until he does notice the threat. He still cannot act on his first turn, but if the attackers burst through the door and attack him (while otherwise being visible), then he is not surprised as soon as he notices them, which may or may not be before his reactions kick in.

If he rolled a higher initiative, then he can cast shield to protect himself from the axe he sees coming. If he rolled lower, then he's not fast enough even though he can see the axe. Because initiative models reaction speed, not 'noticing a threat'.

However, if an unseen or heard Assassin shot a poisoned blowgun dart through the open window where the wizard studies his grimoire with his back to the window, his initiative score/reaction speed will not let him notice the threat, therefore he cannot intercept the attack by casting shield because he is still unaware of that attack.

 

[epithet]

Perhaps the rule should be read as "cannot move or take an action on your next turn." It would be the target's first turn after the encounter was initiated, if you consider the surprise attack to the be event that initiates the combat encounter.

So, for example, your assassin is undetected and intends to assassinate the target. Initiative is rolled, and the target's initiative is 15, the assassin's is 10. The target is unaware of the assassin and can move and act normally on his turn at initiative 15, continuing to walk his patrol route, make his performance check to play the lute, etc. This is not a turn in the combat, because the combat has not begun.

At initiative 10, the assassin strikes. His attack, if it hits, is an automatic critical. The target becomes unable to take reactions at this point.

At initiative 15, on round 2, the target gets his first turn in the combat, but cannot move or take an action because of surprise. After that turn, he can take reactions.

Now, I know you're going to protest that "the rules" set forth an order--a series of steps to follow when combat begins. That's an example of a narrow framework, by the way. I'm telling you that not every combat should begin in exactly the same way, and that the narrative should be given priority in determining the circumstances when combat is initiated. The rules are guidelines and examples, but cannot contemplate all the strategies of a creative party of murder-hobos. You've got to be flexible and adaptive, and make the rules serve the role-playing.

 

[MG.0]

I think pretty much everyone has shown they can make the narrative work for them, even if the mechanics used to justify it are different. Who cares what the mechanics are, as long as the in-game effects seem believable?

What would be cool is if we could start a new thread where everyone could lay out some standard examples of how their mechanics would work narratively in different situations. No definitions or rules expositions (except the bare minimum needed to understand what the example represents), just narrative with meta-game effects listed as necessary, just in case anyone would like clear examples to help them decide how they want it to work in their games without having to slog through this giant thread. We could decide on what form and what conditions the examples should demonstrate. Is anyone interested?

 

[Arial Black]

The reason we don't let the assassin attack first, before initiative is rolled and the first round begins, is that this would take away the victim's chance to actually notice a threat and stick it to the assassin! The victim might not be surprised, and might go either before or after the assassin, depending on reaction speed.

Whichever way it is run, that way has to cope with all possibilities; whether the victim is surprised or not, has faster reactions or not, whether the assassin does something other than attack on his first turn or not.

This is why I run it the way I do, which is also the way I believe is intended. As soon as combat is imminent, check for surprise and roll initiative. Any surprised creature takes the penalty regarding his first turn, but remains surprised until he notices a threat, whether or not he notices that threat before or after his first turn.

This way always works.

 

[epithet]

The reason we don't let the assassin attack first, before initiative is rolled and the first round begins, is that this would take away the victim's chance to actually notice a threat and stick it to the assassin! The victim might not be surprised, and might go either before or after the assassin, depending on reaction speed.
...

Whether or not the victim is surprised has nothing whatsoever to do with reaction speed, which is why the consequences of surprise should not be contingent upon initiative. Surprise is a factor of the victim's passive perception (if the victim is actively searching, I would probably rule that he's anticipating a threat and not eligible for surprise, mechanically.) When you roll the stealth of the assassin and compare that to the passive perception of the victim, that should be the determination of surprise. To make it mechanically contingent on initiative order just gives the victim a second opportunity to avoid getting ganked, which I don't think is appropriate.

 

[Hriston]

If the PC triest to use a reaction before his turn, "[Character] has his head up his ass and isn't completely aware of what's going on around him, since he was totally surprised. You aren't able to react to that."

On the surprised PC's turn, "You were totally surprised by [event], so all you can do on your turn is to regain your bearings enough to react to whatever happens next."

I don't think the difference between is surprised and was surprised is significant here when you consider that the state of being surprised can mean that you are currently being shocked or startled by something unexpected, or that you continue to feel shocked even though the moment of surprise has passed. You seem to be stressing the past tense in both of the above examples in order to distance the state of surprise from the mechanical inability to act, but in doing this do you mean to say that at that point the PCs are no longer surprised?

In the case of assassinate, that's simple: the assassin goes first. Exactly how the assassin goes first will depend on the narrative--we're gonna role play that out. It might be a held attack to strike at just the right moment, it might be something else, but in any case it will serve the narrative. There's no way for a target to "take a turn in the combat" before the assassin starts the combat with an attack.

Oh okay. I'd forgotten that in this case we differ not about whether a creature that is past its first turn can be auto-critted, but rather about when that creature's first turn occurs. Sorry to have asked a leading question that doesn't apply to the position you've expressed. There're quite a few combinations of opinions on this thread for me to keep everyone's straight.

In the way you interpret the rules, combat begins when you roll initiative. That means, to you, that if nothing happens for the next 6 seconds and a hidden assassin remains hidden, he's nevertheless lost the benefit of surprise. When he does ultimately attack 12 seconds later, 2 turns "in combat" have already passed, the unsuspecting guard can move and act normally, and the assassin does not get an auto-crit. Instead of looking to the narrative to guide your ruling on surprise, you have parsed the rules down to what is, in my opinion, an unnecessarily restrictive framework within which you vest control over the surprise mechanic.

From a narrative sense, even after initiative is rolled, as long as the assassin keeps making any necessary stealth checks and his target is not aware of any threat to the target's safety, then when the assassin strikes - whenever the assassin strikes - the target will be surprised. Your narrow interpretation of the rules means that an ambush is fundamentally impossible, because you've said you have to roll initiative when the ambushers see the targets, and if the ambushers wait until the targets are in position, holding their actions to launch arrows or roll boulders over the cliff when the PCs are just in the right spot, they have lost the mechanical benefit of surprise.

Surprise has to be flexible to serve the narrative. For example, I've let a paladin use an athletics check instead of a stealth check to determine surprise, because the paladin was bursting forth from total concealment to make his attack. You've got to be able to say "Yeah, that could surprise the hell out of someone" and go with it, and not prioritize rules over rulings.

This isn't what I was referring to as "my interpretation". I'm certainly not arguing for this in this thread. I expressed in the initiative thread that I do things this way, following after what my understanding of the intent was in earlier editions and without any clear guidelines in the rules about what constitutes "a combat" as opposed to "an encounter". My reading of earlier editions had led me to conflate the two terms, and I then applied that assumption to the 5E rules. I don't expect you to have read every post I made in that thread, but I was quite convinced by some of the responses that the rules of combat, especially with regard to surprise, might indeed run smoother if I instead held off beginning combat until someone declared an action that would be opposed or resisted by the other party. I think my understanding of earlier editions may have been off in this respect as well. For example, it appears that in first edition AD&D, surprise is only determined once both parties are aware of one another, a nuance that escaped me upon earlier readings, and that seems to contrast with the way it is presented in 5E.

Where my question was directed was at the notion that the inability to act until the end of the first turn constituted something different than what is meant by "surprised". I was asking how that was restrictive of the narrative. Perhaps you agree that at that point the creature is no longer surprised, in which case it makes sense for you to revert to the earlier argument about when the creature's first turn actually takes place. I believe that our difference here isn't about respect for the narrative, but about allowing the assassin to make his attack out of initiative order. The reason I say this is because I believe that rolling initiative does not represent an event in the narrative, but is a means for resolving narrative events in order.

Let's say I call for an initiative roll in response to the assassin declaring his attack. What is to prevent the surprised target from having a lightning quick response to the attack that allows him to avoid the worst part of the attack? How is that more restrictive of the narrative than granting the assassin an automatic success? Keep in mind that if there is some narrative reason that the target is unable to have such a response that you, as the DM, are free to dictate any initiative order you wish as a forgone conclusion unworthy of random determination.

 

[Hriston]

A Petrified creature cannot move or take an action.

Therefore, the implication of this is that if you can move or take an action then you are not petrified.

Ok, so far I'm with you.

And, if 'being unable to move or take an action' EQUALS 'surprised', by the same logic it also equals Petrified.

Therefore, 'surprised' EQUALS Petrified.

Have you noticed that something is wrong?

What's wrong is that you are capable of twisted leaps in logic. I am making no such leaps.

'Speeding' gets you a fine, but getting fined is not equal to speeding.

On p189, under the heading 'Surprise', there are a lot of words, but actually only three actual rules:-

* the DM determines who might be surprised

* any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised

* if you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends

Your understanding of what qualifies as a rule is leading you to ignore most of what is said. Notably you are leaving off the phrase "at the start of the encounter" when you should not. It is important for understanding the rest of the sentence. You should read all the words and then draw your conclusion.

We can do the same with the speeding example:-

* the government decides what the speed limit on any particular stretch of road might be

* anyone driving a vehicle over that limit is defined as 'speeding'

* if you are 'speeding', you will get a fine

This would be a better analogy if it said, "If you are speeding, you are driving above the speed limit until you stop speeding." There's absolutely no guarantee that speeding will lead to a fine.

Not noticing a threat.

Here's the thing. The natural meaning of "surprised" can be either feeling or showing shock due to something unexpected, or being made to have such a feeling due to something unexpected. Neither of these meanings encompasses the state of non-expectation that necessarily must precede the moment of surprise.

Although the section is written from the POV of the beginning of the encounter (fair enough; every encounter has a beginning and you need to know what to do), and the DM must therefore determine surprise at the start of the encounter, 'surprise' is not limited to the start of the encounter.

You should not ignore the context that the POV from which the passage on surprise is written gives you. It is very important for understanding the information it is meant to convey.

If the wizard was being shot from hiding, was surprised, but rolled a higher initiative than his attacker, he cannot throw up a shield to block an attack he knows nothing about.

That's not what the text of the Shield spell says. It says you can use your reaction to cast the spell when you are hit by an attack, and that the AC bonus you receive counts against that attack. It says nothing about seeing the attack coming. You only need to be able to use your reaction.

 

[Arial Black]

Let's say I call for an initiative roll in response to the assassin declaring his attack. What is to prevent the surprised target from having a lightning quick response to the attack that allows him to avoid the worst part of the attack?

This is an excellent point! Whatever way we run the encounter, it must be able to fairly adjudicate the events, for both assassin and target.

The target must have a fair chance of avoiding being surprised, and the assassin must have a fair chance of surprising the target. 'Fair' here would be to combine skills with circumstance. If the assassin has a high Stealth and the victim has a low Perception, then it's perfectly fair that the target is very likely to be surprised. Conversely, if it's a trainee assassin with a low(ish) Stealth and the victim has a high Perception, then it's perfectly fair that the victim is unlikely to be surprised.

If both skills are low or both high, it's fair that the chances are roughly equal.

Now, all of this should be obvious. What may not be so obvious is that if you mess with the way encounters are run then you mess with the 'fairness' of the whole thing. For example, if you choose to run combats by letting the assassin get a free attack outside of the first combat round, then you artificially deny the target from noticing the threat and possibly (separately) being faster on the draw than the assassin.

"But the assassin has +13 Stealth, Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind, and the pass without trace spell? Of course the victim is surprised, so obviously the first thing that happens is the assassin's shot from cover!"

Ah, but my PC has +17 Perception. The assassin is still favourite, but I have a fair chance so I should have a 'fair' chance; making that first attack outside of combat takes my fair chance away.

Narratively, the assassin might be in a sound and light-deadening field, but my PC is experienced and knowledgeable enough to associate a sudden dip in sound with sound-dampening magic, and this might ring alarm bells for him, putting him on alert for danger. In game terms, 'not surprised'.

When the assassin announces his attack, determine surprise (assassin rolls +23 with advantage, victim rolls +17. Assassin probably wins, but victim has a fair chance and he might win).

Roll initiative. There are four possibilities: surprise/assassin faster, surprise/victim faster, no surprise/assassin faster, no surprise/victim faster.

The normal way to run combat copes with all four possibilities with aplomb:-

* surprise/assassin faster: undetected, the assassin shoots at the surprised victim. If it hits, it will auto-crit, and the victim will not be surprised any more. If it misses, the arrow clattering against the stonework gives the game away, so the victim is no longer surprised (DM ruling; he may have ruled that the arrow went out of the open window and the assassin remains undetected and the victim is still surprised. He may have called for a skill check, or used another method). Next, the victim's turn. He is now aware that he is in combat, but he has only just noticed this and he is still caught on his heels. Because he was surprised at the start of the encounter, he cannot act or move on his first turn, even though he is no longer surprised now.

If the assassin had missed but the DM ruled that the victim didn't notice (by whatever method), then the victim is still surprised on round 2 and if the assassin shoots again, it will auto-crit. The victim can now act on his turn because the non-act penalty for being surprised only applies to his first turn. The victim cannot attack the assassin though, because he simply doesn't know that there is an assassin!

* surprise/victim faster: victim goes first, but cannot move or act. After this, he may use reactions. Note that this doesn't give him a way to use reactions against things he doesn't know about; this is true whether or not he is surprised! The assassin shoots, getting an auto-crit if it hits. The PC can use reactions, and may have shield or Uncanny Dodge or some other reaction that may help. The trouble is that you can no more use reactions against attacks you don't know anything about, than you can make attacks against foes you don't know anything about! It would be just as wrong for the DM to allow shield from the victim against this unknown attack as he would to allow the victim to actually attack the assassin he doesn't know anything about! It doesn't need that to be written in the spell description; it is part of the DM's job to adjudicate fairly.

Note that if the assassin broke cover and ran at the victim with a knife (instead of shooting from hidden), then the victim could use a reaction against that attack, because he is now aware that there is an attack!

* not surprised/assassin faster: victim realises that there is danger and is now alert. When the assassin shoots, the victim can use reactions against it! He is watching for danger and can see/hear the arrow in enough time to use Uncanny Dodge or cast shield.

* not surprised/victim faster: so, he thinks he's got the drop on me, eh? Take that, you filthy murderer! The victim attacks the assassin that he did, in fact, notice! Note that this possibility is taken away if you let the assassin attack before combat starts(!).

 

[Athinar]

Assassinate/Surprise - So how many times does this Thread come up?

So how many times does this Thread come up?

Tells me that Surprise/Assassinate is broken