D&D 5E Assassinate

[Horwath]

In addition;

initiative should be rolled after "surprise" or 1st round, what ever you want to call it, simply to prevent meta-gaming from assassin as he will adjust his move and/or bonus action in surprise/1st round in regard of the later initiative order.

 

[clearstream]

In addition;

initiative should be rolled after "surprise" or 1st round, what ever you want to call it, simply to prevent meta-gaming from assassin as he will adjust his move and/or bonus action in surprise/1st round in regard of the later initiative order.

That's a good point about meta-gaming. It highlights an underlying issue I found earlier where the rules - mechanically cogent as they are - are not gelling with some posters' mental construct (picture of what the rules represent). For example, for me your assassin is not meta-gaming in the situation you discuss, because under my mental construct rolling initiative represents something tangible and visible about a creature's state. So in my game our assassin sees that her target is on-balance, possibly looking wary or at least not flat-footed. Something always true of characters with the Alert feat! Or she sees that her target is caught up in introspection, not wary, flat-footed... physical signs that outwardly confirm that they won/lost initiative.

In your game, I'm supposing that you don't picture that rolling high initiative represents anything visible. The argument I want to suggest is not that initiative has to represent something visible, but rather that a group can use a construct that maps to the rules, which are themselves mechanically cogent. That's an alternative to house-ruling.

At one point I wanted to frame that in terms of a formal fallacy that I was going to call "Deciding what happens before rolling the dice!" Meaning interpreting the rules to produce the outcome that our construct demands, rather than developing our mental construct from what the rules produce. The initiative case is a good example of that, because one can decide that there is no way an assassin can judge the readiness of her target or one can follow the rules and say yes, that must be what happens.

 

[Celtavian]

That's a good point about meta-gaming. It highlights an underlying issue I found earlier where the rules - mechanically cogent as they are - are not gelling with some posters' mental construct (picture of what the rules represent). For example, for me your assassin is not meta-gaming in the situation you discuss, because under my mental construct rolling initiative represents something tangible and visible about a creature's state. So in my game our assassin sees that her target is on-balance, possibly looking wary or at least not flat-footed. Something always true of characters with the Alert feat! Or she sees that her target is caught up in introspection, not wary, flat-footed... physical signs that outwardly confirm that they won/lost initiative.

In your game, I'm supposing that you don't picture that rolling high initiative represents anything visible. The argument I want to suggest is not that initiative has to represent something visible, but rather that a group can use a construct that maps to the rules, which are themselves mechanically cogent. That's an alternative to house-ruling.

At one point I wanted to frame that in terms of a formal fallacy that I was going to call "Deciding what happens before rolling the dice!" Meaning interpreting the rules to produce the outcome that our construct demands, rather than developing our mental construct from what the rules produce. The initiative case is a good example of that, because one can decide that there is no way an assassin can judge the readiness of her target or one can follow the rules and say yes, that must be what happens.

Good way to look at it. I had to step away from the Pathfinder/3E surprise round conceptualization of surprise to see this new method still works within the narrative.

 

[Horwath]

That's a good point about meta-gaming. It highlights an underlying issue I found earlier where the rules - mechanically cogent as they are - are not gelling with some posters' mental construct (picture of what the rules represent). For example, for me your assassin is not meta-gaming in the situation you discuss, because under my mental construct rolling initiative represents something tangible and visible about a creature's state. So in my game our assassin sees that her target is on-balance, possibly looking wary or at least not flat-footed. Something always true of characters with the Alert feat! Or she sees that her target is caught up in introspection, not wary, flat-footed... physical signs that outwardly confirm that they won/lost initiative.

In your game, I'm supposing that you don't picture that rolling high initiative represents anything visible. The argument I want to suggest is not that initiative has to represent something visible, but rather that a group can use a construct that maps to the rules, which are themselves mechanically cogent. That's an alternative to house-ruling.

At one point I wanted to frame that in terms of a formal fallacy that I was going to call "Deciding what happens before rolling the dice!" Meaning interpreting the rules to produce the outcome that our construct demands, rather than developing our mental construct from what the rules produce. The initiative case is a good example of that, because one can decide that there is no way an assassin can judge the readiness of her target or one can follow the rules and say yes, that must be what happens.

Wee always play that you roll initiative but do not know enemies initiative until they have acted.

So if you roll relatively high you can make an educated guess that you will go again before they react but not always.

also we are thinking of rolling initiative with d12 to reduce random factor a little and to show d12 some love in the game.

 

[WandOfOrcus]

I joined this site just to make this comment. That is how asinine this rule is. RAW and supported by Mearles leads to this: I'm a highly dexterous lore bard, walking and whistling a merry tune down a road. Not a care in the world nor a reason to be on guard for anything (low wisdom). Up ahead, two assassins are hiding up in the trees. Both have been hired to kill me (something about the King's daughter). Neither knows about the other. One of them feels they have a good shot lined up and decides to shoot. Begin Combat! Everyone rolls initiative. There are three basic combinations that can occur: I go first and the assassins go after me; An assassin goes before and after me; Both assassins go before me. I'll examine what happens for each basic situation.

I go first: While there is definitely a hostile situation brewing, I have no idea it exists. But the rules do. So even though I'm walking along and whistling as I go, I stop. I can't move while surprised (which I am) or take actions (whistling is practicing for a Performance so I'm ruling it is an action). SOMEHOW my ability to whistle and walk is suspended, for no apparent reason. After six seconds of this pass, I can start taking reactions, to what, who knows? The assassins no longer have surprise on me and don't get advantage or auto-crits on hits. Boo-hoo for them, good for me. I now have to wait for 12 additional seconds before I can move or whistle. Wow.

I go second: One assassin gets advantage on his/her attack and auto-crits if he/she hits. That's what assassins should do. I get hit (I'm assuming) and take massive assassin damage. This takes six seconds that I can't move or whistle during, but I can get hit. I can't do something I want to do but I can do something I'd rather not do (whistle/get hit). This is followed by six seconds on "my turn" that I can't walk or whistle (I've given up on walking a whistling at this point as it apparently attracts arrows). Then, I get to wait six more seconds to do anything except react to the fact I've been shot. I can't healing word myself, but I can stare and scream at the bolt embedded in my spleen.

I go last: As you may have noticed, in each scenario my bard spends the first 18 seconds of combat not walking or whistling. No magic holding me. Maybe not even an arrow/bolt sticking through my leg and/or throat to stop me. Rules stopped me, because, reasons. In this case, I have a better than average shot at being dead before I ever figure out why I can't walk and whistle. Or not. Doesn't really matter I don't get to walk and whistle. Period.

Now, let's take this trek into absurdity one step farther: 20 assassins. Doesn't matter what the case break down is, I spend up to 126 seconds not walking or whistling. Over two minutes. The game rule equivalent of a stroke. Doesn't matter if or how often I get hit. I lost bodily control for two minutes for no other reason than: rules.

This is why at my table a surprise round is handled separate from combat. Only non-surprised "combatants" roll initiative, and only if needed. Combat doesn't start until one or more adversaries notice the threat. Shoot at a surprised hostile and miss? Percentile chance they didn't notice. Does this mean an assassin can assassinate a target and move over to that target's sleeping companion and do it again? Yep, sure does. Is that any lamer than the sleeping target rules aware of combat starting while in a slumber and rolling initiative? Don't think so.

Look, if disagreeing with rules and rulings was as taboo as some have made it out to be, there wouldn't be a 2nd - 5th editions to this game. Use some damn common sense and play this how works best for your table. Have a (gasp) discussion about how assassinate should work. Vote if you need to or DM call it as required. Just be open and honest from the beginning. And, maybe more importantly than anything discussed, if you as a DM or you as a player have agreed with the other parties playing on how assassinate works, don't change it. Ever. This is the type of rule that can really piss people off. "I didn't take Assassin because you wanted RAW and RAI from Mearles but you just assassinated our party cleric because of an undead horde you really want to run and we didn't get an initiative roll. I call BS! (rage quit)." I've seen it happen in other editions for less.

 

[Flamestrike]

I joined this site just to make this comment. That is how asinine this rule is. RAW and supported by Mearles leads to this: I'm a highly dexterous lore bard, walking and whistling a merry tune down a road. Not a care in the world nor a reason to be on guard for anything (low wisdom). Up ahead, two assassins are hiding up in the trees. Both have been hired to kill me (something about the King's daughter). Neither knows about the other. One of them feels they have a good shot lined up and decides to shoot. Begin Combat! Everyone rolls initiative. There are three basic combinations that can occur: I go first and the assassins go after me; An assassin goes before and after me; Both assassins go before me. I'll examine what happens for each basic situation.

I go first: While there is definitely a hostile situation brewing, I have no idea it exists. But the rules do. So even though I'm walking along and whistling as I go, I stop. I can't move while surprised (which I am) or take actions (whistling is practicing for a Performance so I'm ruling it is an action). SOMEHOW my ability to whistle and walk is suspended, for no apparent reason. After six seconds of this pass, I can start taking reactions, to what, who knows? The assassins no longer have surprise on me and don't get advantage or auto-crits on hits. Boo-hoo for them, good for me. I now have to wait for 12 additional seconds before I can move or whistle. Wow.

No, in this situation (you go first thanks to initiative) you hear the twang of the bow and spot (out of the corner of your eye) an arrow screaming towards you from an undetermined location.

You're still surprised, and cant act on your turn. Youre shocked by the sudden and unexpected attack.

You could use a reaction to cast sheild though. You just managed to act fast enough in response to the declared attack to react to it.

I go second: One assassin gets advantage on his/her attack and auto-crits if he/she hits. That's what assassins should do. I get hit (I'm assuming) and take massive assassin damage. This takes six seconds that I can't move or whistle during, but I can get hit. I can't do something I want to do but I can do something I'd rather not do (whistle/get hit). This is followed by six seconds on "my turn" that I can't walk or whistle (I've given up on walking a whistling at this point as it apparently attracts arrows). Then, I get to wait six more seconds to do anything except react to the fact I've been shot. I can't healing word myself, but I can stare and scream at the bolt embedded in my spleen.

Yes. You get shot before you notice a damn thing and are caught completely flat footed. You know exactly where assassin 1 is now (unless he also used cunning action and re-hid). You are still surprised and cant act on your turn. You can use your reaction to cast shield against assassin 2 (who goes after you) though.

I go last: As you may have noticed, in each scenario my bard spends the first 18 seconds of combat not walking or whistling. No magic holding me. Maybe not even an arrow/bolt sticking through my leg and/or throat to stop me. Rules stopped me, because, reasons. In this case, I have a better than average shot at being dead before I ever figure out why I can't walk and whistle. Or not. Doesn't really matter I don't get to walk and whistle. Period.

18 seconds hasnt passed. The two assassins arrows have been launched a split second after each other. By the time both have been resolved, barely a second or two has passed.

Now, let's take this trek into absurdity one step farther: 20 assassins. Doesn't matter what the case break down is, I spend up to 126 seconds not walking or whistling. Over two minutes. The game rule equivalent of a stroke. Doesn't matter if or how often I get hit. I lost bodily control for two minutes for no other reason than: rules.

Dude, what? Actions in combat happen more or less simultanously. Those 20 arrows were launched as a volley with barely a split second between them. A round is 6 seconds, and everyone acts simultaneously with 'turns' only occurring as an abstraction.

This is why at my table a surprise round is handled separate from combat.

You're using flawed logic and poor understanding of the rules with this house rule.

As long as youre aware of this, cool.

 

[SkidAce]

Now, let's take this trek into absurdity one step farther: 20 assassins. Doesn't matter what the case break down is, I spend up to 126 seconds not walking or whistling. Over two minutes. The game rule equivalent of a stroke. Doesn't matter if or how often I get hit. I lost bodily control for two minutes for no other reason than: rules.

I understand how you have some concerns, but this is incorrect. Everything happens at the same time(ish), so six seconds.

 

[SkidAce]

And welcome to the boards, have some XP.

 

[Arial Black]

No, in this situation (you go first thanks to initiative) you hear the twang of the bow and spot (out of the corner of your eye) an arrow screaming towards you from an undetermined location.

You ascertain whether or not the 'twang of the bow' is heard using Perception, not Initiative.

 

[Flamestrike]

You ascertain whether or not the 'twang of the bow' is heard using Perception, not Initiative.

Not in this case I dont. The attacker is still hidden. I only need to use perception to find a hidden creature. Do I need a perception check to hear the crack of a rifle from an assasin with the skulker feat who missed me?

Man, combat is an abstraction. Actions are pretty much happening simultanously. There are very few situations that cant be narrated accordingly.