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5E Assuming Dark Sun is on the horizon, what are your worries?

Gradine

Final Form
Yes, but many who complain about a thing (such as depictions of slavery) don't do so fully informed. The object based upon conceptions they have based upon labels (such as 'slavery') and not based upon actual knowledge of the subject or it's finer differences.

I think you'll find that most of those who are most impacted by depictions of slavery are fairly well informed about it
 

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EthanSental

Adventurer
Like others....I think just the term slavery will be a hot bed now compared to 10 years ago. There are some great 5e home brew on enworld that I’m just finding so thanks to all those that contributed to it, much appreciated!
 

ccs

40th lv DM
Dark Sun's slavery is not built upon racial supremacy, nor does it feature any of the other worst excesses of chattel slavery. Believe me, that's a very important set of differences to those for whom it matters.

Yes, I know that. But those who'd complain dont.
 


Eltab

Hero
(Maybe repeating myself from far upthread, maybe not.)

I worry that people who complain about Dark Sun will not let it sink in that the 'baseline condition' is "Evil is predominant* and has almost completely won". They will complain about the Evils and miss the fact that 'fight against an Evil' (heading towards 'overthrow an Evil') is a straightforward campaign to create on Athas.

I also worry that WotC will fear the social media flamethrower more than they love / respect the setting.

* This is the opposite of Star Trek, which begins with "What if the better angels of our nature were predominate?"
 

I think you'll find that most of those who are most impacted by depictions of slavery are fairly well informed about it
"Most"? Yes. But most won't be the ones that are most vocal about it. As with almost every social issue, it is those who 'speak the loudest' that are heard the most. And all too often, those that speak the loudest are not the most informed. It only takes a tiny minority to create a "shit storm".

Yes, I know that. But those who'd complain dont.
Exactly.
 


Ratskinner

Adventurer
For the sake of argument, let’s assume Dark Sun is on the horizon. What would be some concerns or worries with how this 5e version would be presented?

Non-Brom artwork (first thing I think of when I hear DS)?

It uses similar artwork/styles and it takes off big-time inspiring a lot of cosplay.....:eek:
 

Coroc

Hero
Dark Sun's slavery is not built upon racial supremacy, nor does it feature any of the other worst excesses of chattel slavery. Believe me, that's a very important set of differences to those for whom it matters.

Slavery is always condemnable. Dark suns slavery is pure fiction and "in game" depicted as a thing to be overcome and therefore should not be subject at all to any sort of reflection or projection of any past or present RL similarities.

But to expand on your theory: Whether on top of - normal humiliation, availability for all sorts of dirty work without pay, bad living conditions, abusable and killable out of a mood - comes some some false racial supremacy claims, is as unimportant as bicycle toppling over in Chicago compared to all the other wrongs.
What I do not get on todays approach on such topics, is that words and wrong ideologies of some seem to hurt those not afflicted by any of the misery more than the facts and actual deeds.
And concerning ancient Greco-Roman slavery : it was not necessary racial supremacy but more often then not the slaves where war bounty or tribute aka from another nation and race. Still Rome e.g. thought of themselves to be superior to other peoples.
 

This is Dark Sun, neither Scarlet O'hara's servants nor the world of Gor. ( = like mixing "Conan the barbarian" and "50 shades of gray"), neither we aren't talking about Christian women from Mediterranean coasts being kidnapped by Otoman corsairs to be the new concubines in the Sultán's harem. (Do you know the 1986 miniserie "Harem" with Omar Shafir?).

Years ago there was a teleserie based in a slave rebellion from real History, Spartacus: blood and sand. In 2013 we could watch the movie "12 years a slave" based in a real case. In an episode of Hercules: the Legendary Journies "the March to the Freedom" the main character, played by Kevin Sorbo, helped a couple of former slaves (she was played by Lucy Liu) and even he gaves them his own land to grown and create a family.

We can talk about slavery in a work of speculative fiction, but we shouldn't play down, fribble about suffering by real people. And reporting slavery as wrong isn't enough. We have to make remember our ethical code is based in the moral principles of the Natural Law as the respect for the human dignity. Without this the one who rebels against authority may become a new tyrant.
 

Delazar

Explorer
On Dark Sun evil won basically. Major themes.

Environment
Psionics
Slavery
Defiling.

This. I hope people don't get stuck on edition-specific issues ("Half-giants should be Large! Sorcerers do not exist! Tieflings are not a thing! Psionics is not magic"), and instead focus on the major themes that made Dark Sun great.

I don't care if they use goliaths instead of half-giants, or dragonborn instead of dray, or if the Psionicist uses PHB spells (I actually hope it does, I don't want to learn a new set of rules).

Art by Brom would be awesome, but I don't think this is happening...
 

Coroc

Hero
This. I hope people don't get stuck on edition-specific issues ("Half-giants should be Large! Sorcerers do not exist! Tieflings are not a thing! Psionics is not magic"), and instead focus on the major themes that made Dark Sun great.

I don't care if they use goliaths instead of half-giants, or dragonborn instead of dray, or if the Psionicist uses PHB spells (I actually hope it does, I don't want to learn a new set of rules).

Art by Brom would be awesome, but I don't think this is happening...

It ain't that easy even with your enthusiastic attitude.

Environment challenges are nullified or heftily weakened by some classes (monk, barbarian, shapeshifting druid e.g.)

Defiling: It is evil. A sorcerer if the concept would exist in Darksun could not be anything else than a defiler. He would lack the subtlety and intelligence to cast in a preserving way. He does not fit into lore in any way, and would not survive for long. And he is also one of the classes (Red dragon sorcerer) who nullifies the extreme heat conditions with a whim.

Psionics is not magic, it is quasimagic, pure power of the mind. It never requires any components at all.
It is best compareable to at wil lcasting of some mobs if you want to compare for what ever reason.

For halfgiants use permanent "enlarged" humans, you do not need "goliaths" the naming of the later is a joke imho (it would be like naming barbarians Conans or wizards Merlins).
The challenge for halfgiants lie in their size requiring more water, bigger equipment and they do not fit through anywere. And they got shifting alignment issues. But they are tough, very tough.

Tieflings require demons or devils, which requires abyss or nine hells. None of these exist in darksun so why retcon? Do you also need aquatic elves there? No? Why? Does it not fit? Because no big bodies of water for them to live? See, same goes for tieflings. Because no progenitors for them to justify their existence.

Edit: same goes for dragonborn. No Dragons there, so no dragonborn. The "dragon(s)" of DS are totally different thing than in other gameworlds.

For all of you who want to play kitchensink in the desert with stoneage weaponry why don't you ask for FR accessory "Anauroch -10000 DR" including every race of the multiverse and all classes
 
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slipshot762

Villager
My worry is that they will not simply port DS to the new edition w/o making sweeping changes of the kind we've seen to FR. I would not wish to see teifling or dragonborn but rather mul and thrikren as they were originally presented. I would not find a new psionic system desirable. I would not object to changes around social concerns such as slavery so long as the threat of sorceror Kings / defilers remains prevalent and looming, ready to pounce if players do not intervene in beating back the menace. There is a definite opportunity to wield an effective Spartacus/against the odds motif here, in much the way starwars gives you the empire to unite player characters against. Think Stargate. But please do not change lore history or major themes for the sake of social commentary through a modern lense, former slaves of athas like those of Rome would still likely view slavery as a part of the brutal world, a fact of life, the condition of the conquered and safeguard for the weak who might otherwise perish rather than an unspeakable universal evil. Again think of the ga'ould in Stargate and how they view what constitutes the proper order of things. Nothing would be a bigger letdown than an athas where everyone but sorceror Kings view everything through a modern Western moral frame of reference...I mean halfling cannibals should still be halfling cannibals, please do not rewrite them to be anything but Savage and scary as inverting the Bilbo trope was part of the appeal.
 

Coroc

Hero
My worry is that they will not simply port DS to the new edition w/o making sweeping changes of the kind we've seen to FR. I would not wish to see teifling or dragonborn but rather mul and thrikren as they were originally presented. I would not find a new psionic system desirable. I would not object to changes around social concerns such as slavery so long as the threat of sorceror Kings / defilers remains prevalent and looming, ready to pounce if players do not intervene in beating back the menace. There is a definite opportunity to wield an effective Spartacus/against the odds motif here, in much the way starwars gives you the empire to unite player characters against. Think Stargate. But please do not change lore history or major themes for the sake of social commentary through a modern lense, former slaves of athas like those of Rome would still likely view slavery as a part of the brutal world, a fact of life, the condition of the conquered and safeguard for the weak who might otherwise perish rather than an unspeakable universal evil. Again think of the ga'ould in Stargate and how they view what constitutes the proper order of things. Nothing would be a bigger letdown than an athas where everyone but sorceror Kings view everything through a modern Western moral frame of reference...I mean halfling cannibals should still be halfling cannibals, please do not rewrite them to be anything but Savage and scary as inverting the Bilbo trope was part of the appeal.

Yea but that is why I rather want they keep their hands of it I rather convert it to my ideals myself.
Cannibal halflings, lol with todays Zeitgeist they make vegans out of them haha.
 

I can allow me lots of retcons in my own DS, for example allowing sorcerers as no-arcane spellcasters, or ardents, the psionic cousing of paladins and clerics, or even the warden and the seeker, the primal classes from the 4th Edition, or the totemist shaman, the incarnum soulmelder class. If want I can do a crossover with Jackandor and Mystara's Hollow World.

But I wonder how the metaplot would continue after the fall of (almost) all the sorcerer-kings. Invasion by the three-kin empire, or exploring the dead lands? Now the undead empire is a very boring faction for DS (even with the necromantic version of the life-shape technology by . An extrapalanr invasion by aliens from the Far Realm would be possible. What were the plans for the rest of the world?
 

Slavery is in D&D already, so it's not taboo or off-limits: drow, mind flayers, goblins, the Red Wizards of Thay, the githyanki race, aboleths, azers, beholders, and so on. But, no setting has ever made it a way of life for the setting like Dark Sun did. Usually it's clear-cut: kill slavers, happy ending. That wouldn't always work on Athas.

It'll come down to market perceptions. Dark Sun came out after over a decade, when it was a barrage of Forgotten Realms + Dragonlance. No one had branched out of traditional high fantasy, and some gamers needed something fresh. Unexpectedly, Dark Sun was a blockbuster for TSR. I say unexpectedly because you can read between the lines when the game designers talk history in interviews.

Dark Sun wasn't for the masses. It's appeal would lie in the "jaded" gamer who'd played enough drunk dwarves, and brave knights, all saving the world and keeping things safe and sound. Dark Sun flipped everything. Bad guys won, there's no reward in the afterlife for living a moral existence, and you're not playing to keep the status quo but for the hope something better might happen because of your actions. And therein lies the economic gamble.

New players are coming in droves to the game. How long will they be satisfied with dose after dose of Forgotten Realms and the same dwarf and the same elf and the same wizard and the same fighter? What about the experienced gamer who's been buying your product for several editions? I'm sure someone is going to read the sales numbers and try to discern when interest wanes in the Realms, then strategically put out something to alleviate that waning interest. Whether they do it with a bold new world, or a simplistic supplement like Ravnica, remains to be seen.
 



Zardnaar

Legend
Oh damn, the environment. I'd expect there to be someone complaining about how it is propaganda from the climate change crowd.
Hey it would suck if they pushed climate change in say FR but it's organic/built from the ground up in DS.

If it was another RSE on FR and they hamfisted it in that's fine.

Or if they did a water world type setting that's also fine.
 


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