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At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

I have no comment on the warlock, I have not seen them enough in play to really comment. The restoration of eldritch blast seems ok. For the Wizard, I would go with standard action recharge. Wizard powers in 4e tend to be hit or miss and if recharge is too hard then playing a wizard could become an excerise in frustration.
I would also chime in that in the wizard Dailies need more oomph. They will miss quite often so when they work then need to work well.

This would get wizard players to actually have a lower INT if they wanted because they knew they can recharge their spells during an encounter. So hitting with them is not as, "Holy crap, I have to hit with this power right now or I will lose it forever".
 

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I'm kind of surprised that, having settled on everyone having at-will powers, they didn't come up with some non-spell powers for Wizards. Why couldn't they have at-wills that affected crossbows or daggers or whatever? Maybe a dagger attacks that adds Int to damage and causes the enemy to take -1 on defenses if he doesn't step back next round, or something. I don't see any reason why a Wizard couldn't secondarily have powers related to crossbows or darts.

It is still a problem even if the had an INT based weapon at-will power that they could select.
 

The thing many have pointed out though, is that it really doesn't. It adds new archetypes, but it also ruins existing archetypes ... unless you implement fixes that make it so that a character never has to actually use their basic attacks, otherwise that archetype is gone.

It restores, some of the original D&D feel. You may prefer the new feel and I am sure that their are a ton of people who do. So I don't want to knock your play style. But to satisfy you, I am going to include a reserve feat that allows you to use a lesser version of powers twice an encounter and at 16th thrice during an encounter.

It just seems odd that the goal is to get rid of at-wills to make them have to use basic attacks ... but then you have to make it so that they never really will be making basic attacks (unless they want to), in order to make it balanced in the 4e system.

I don't get it what are you talking about?
 

One of the problems with this is the option of multiclassing. A class with "good" at-wills and weaker encounter/dailies will steal powers from the class with more powerful encounters and dailies that balance out the weaker at-wills.

This is a good reason to make the wizard fix (if it winds up being +1 damage die to all powers) a class feature or a wizard feat rather than actually modify the powers.
 

Except the powers I suggested had no visible effects and could just as easily be described as "smart fighting" or whatever you prefer, instead of "magic".
I prefer the feel of characters being able to do whatever a commoner could do but better, not a hey I am smart so I can fight really good. That seems weird. I don't want a militant wizard unless I sacrifice my spell power to do it (a lower INT for a higher STR or DEX). By this the wizard can be just as good at fighting as the fighter, his bonuses would be very close to theirs. Fundamentally, I feel, the wizard should be worse at fighting than a fighter. Making it so that a wizard is as good at fighting as a fighter does not fix the issue I think it exasperates it!


It's simple, alright, but it's not a fix.
Fair enough, from your position that is understandable.
 

Allow me to present an analogy, just in case anyone hasn't got it already.
Chocolate is special.
If you have chocolate with every meal, it will cease to be special.

If Christmas was every day, it is a chore and not a pleasant thing. Too much of a good thing can make that thing not any good.

Like Sadrik, I have toyed with the idea of removing at-will powers in some manner. I find all their finicky effects to be a significant factor in battle-grind. Particularly for martial characters, but also for some of the others. Removing at-wills probably won't speed up the combat in terms of rounds, but it may speed it up in terms of real elapsed time. Less counting of when effects start and stop, and all the tiny bonuses or penalties that they inflict, more getting on with the job of actually fighting.

This will make the rounds go faster. Absolutely. Now it may increase the number of rounds in a battle and HP may be a bit bloated as you have commented below. Lowering the HP a bit may introduce a bit of swingyness as others have pointed out but it will make fights faster and more deadly.

The way I envisioned the changes is as follows:
Your changes are more sweeping than mine but sure, its your game.

Were I in the same location as Sadrik, I'd volunteer to test his version, but I'm on the other side of the world. Nevermind.
Thanks.
 

Its not about how interesting the individual powers are, viewed in a vacuum.

Cadfan, you see, when you say this I am thinking the exact opposite of what you intend. 4e at-will powers are in a vacuum and balanced within that vacuum. How do wizards with powers to blast endlessly affect the game world? I don't think that that was figured into their "balance".

Its about how interesting the character as a whole is, viewed in total. Having things that you can do whenever you like makes your character, overall, more interesting.

You can still make an attack whenever you like, it is just a more mundane attack, not a magical or wuxia-like one.

Reaping Strike might not be as awesome as an at will power in comparison to how awesome it would be if we enhanced it and made it an encounter power, but so what?

So what? Again a weak power that is "spammed" is not as interesting as one that is more limited and more powerful.

And its more important that my character be cool than that his attack powers be cool viewed in a vacuum and unconnected to him.

Doing your three weak at-will powers interspersed between your one encounter power is not as interesting as doing FOUR encounter powers (human bonus would give an extra encounter instead of at will) interspersed between your basic attacks. You may have a different feel for this I do but I think that their is a pretty solid group of people out there that may like if not even prefer this concept.
 

I prefer the feel of characters being able to do whatever a commoner could do but better, not a hey I am smart so I can fight really good. That seems weird. I don't want a militant wizard unless I sacrifice my spell power to do it (a lower INT for a higher STR or DEX). By this the wizard can be just as good at fighting as the fighter, his bonuses would be very close to theirs. Fundamentally, I feel, the wizard should be worse at fighting than a fighter. Making it so that a wizard is as good at fighting as a fighter does not fix the issue I think it exasperates it!



Fair enough, from your position that is understandable.

Ok, so wizards shall not be allowed to use magic, and they shall not be allowed to fight as well as fighters. Got it. What you're saying is "don't play a wizard".

My suggestion would not grant wizards any new weapon proficiencies, and they certainly wouldn't get the fighters' bonus to one or two-handed weapons. So a wizard would still be behind the fighter, no matter what. To even get close to a fighter he would have to spend a feat to learn how to swing a martial or superior weapon, and even then he'd still not be as good as a fighter.

Also, using Intelligence to fight isn't any stranger than using Charisma or Wisdom or Dexterity. Swordmages do it all the time.
 

Ok Sadrik, instead of bickering about the feel of this change, lets see what the "math" says.

Lets create two characters: Bob the Fighter and Joe the Wizard.

Bob has an 18 str, fights longsword & shield, and the rest of his stats are negligible. He picks Cleave, Tide of Iron, Reaping Strike (human), Spinning Sweep (all E) and Brute Strike (D)

Joe has an 18 Int, 8 str, 12 dex. He has a crossbow and a a wand implement. He picks Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Cloud of Daggers (human), Force Orb (all E), Sleep and Acid Arrow.

Lets do some comparisons.

At 1st level, the fighter has a few interesting combat options. If two foes are lined up, he can hit one for 2d8+4 damage and his buddy for 4, he can push a foe and move (along with his 2d8+4) or knock the foe prone and do 2d8+4. Or he can once/day do 3d8+4.

His average damage with one of his attack is (4.5 x2 +4 or 13 damage). If he fights a level 1 foe, like a kobold skirmisher (27 hp/13 bld) He could effectively take him down in 2 rounds barring a miss (one attack bloodies, one attack kills). In one encounter, he effectively opens with four 13 point attacks (+/-) before resorting to his 8 pt basics.

Joe, Otoh, begins with magic missile (4d4+4, avg 14), moves onto ray of frost (2d6+4, 11 hp), cloud of daggers (2d6+4, 11), and finally force orb (2d8+4, 13 + 1d10+4, 9, adjacent) Again, assuming all four hit, he's done average damage of 49 damage to the primary target (as well as slowed him for one rd and done 1-2 pts of dmg from CoD). His first two attacks nearly cleaned up our kobold skirmisher.

In fact, If Bob and Joe were out-numbered 2-1 by skirmishers and did the "always hit/average damage) they could take out the kobolds alone in five rounds tops without resorting to their dailies. (total damage output from their eight encounter powers: 101 hp, total kobold hp 108) and this is ignoring the residual damage from CoD and the carry-over damage from cleave, as well as OAs and APs.

And that's two PCs alone; add a rogue (with his sneak attack dice), a cleric, and another striker (lets say a warlock with eldrich blast and warlocks curse) and those poor kobolds are toast! Probably in three rounds without resorting to a daily.

I guess that solves the "combat-speed" problem too.

Now, here are more things to consider:

1.) Are all encounter powers equal? At 13th level, you must swap out an encounter power to gain a 13th level power. Do I get to swap out one of my "super at-wills" because in a choice between retaining 4 damage to adjacent foes, push a foe 1 square, and knock a foe prone, I'm fairly certain I'm keeping "knock a foe prone" because its more universally useful.

2.) Humans get a bonus at-will as a racial feature (as Joe and Bob show us). So a human starts with four encounter powers. Sweet. We're keeping that right?

3.) Because if you do, you have to fix some of the other races. Half-elves get an at-will from another class as an encounter power. Do they still? Is it sill an encounter power? If so, they're nearly as awesome as humans (depending on stat of other-class power). Or is it a daily now?

4.) More importantly, dragonborn's dragonbreath is only 1d6+con starting, and is clearly inferior to nearly any of our super-at wills (making humans a much better choice, or half-elves if we keep dilettante an encounter power). My suggestion, of course, is to boost dragonbreath to 2d6+con starting, and raise it +1d6 over the character's life as normal. There are some other races like this as well (firesoul genasi and probably more in the MM) that would need dice bumping.

5.) Does our ban on "at-will" magic apply to class features (like paladin's divine challenge or a wizard's cantrips?) as well? If so, kiss the paladin class goodbye.

6.) Similarly, certain utility powers (like the Rogue 2 powers Fleeting Ghost or Great Leap) is at-will. Encounter?

7.) Oh yeah, mult-classing feats?

The big thing this system does is encourage you to open with all 3(4?) of your encounter powers for the most damage, the clean up with basic attacks. The effect is moot. Every time you begin a fight, you want to launch your 2 dice attacks first, then resort to your 1 dice basics. This has the effect of watching your party go nova for 3+ rounds, then resorting to chipping away at weakened, bloody foes. Then rest 5 minutes and do it again.

This, of course, will get worse when your PCs hit paragon and have eight or more encounter powers to burn through, then resort to chipping. It will get better in epic though; those 2 dice super-at-wills will be useless damage (equal now to their basics, which go up to 2 dice at 21st) and probably only recalled when their secondary effects are useful (like slow or extra damage to adjacent foe).

If you DON'T double at will dice, your making the fight even LONGER. The wizard is expected to be doing 1d6+int damage min every round (barring misses and excluding magic missile). If he does it three times and resorts to his inferior crossbow, the fight lasts longer because his to-hit is lower (more chance of missing) and his damage is lower (much lower in some cases).

Neither promote tactical use of encounter powers: go nova and get it over-with.

If you think you can live with the repercussions, go for it man. I just think as soon as this see's field-testing with live PCs, all bets go off and you'll see a lot of "three rounds of encounters, now lets slowly chip away with basics" fights.

Just breaking your system before your PCs do.
 
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I think this reasoning is very flawed.
Obviously I disagree. There is another way to mollify my interested in regards to at-will powers. Namely to make them equal to basic attacks instead of better than.

If you have a selection of 3 options (A, B and C), but 2 are clearly better than the first, you essentially have 2 options.
If all three are roughly equal, but have varying effects so as to make them more useful in varied situations, THAT would have been more interesting.
As it stands option A (basic attack) is ignored 98% of the time. So it really don't exist as an option.
For example: your at will power might not include your stat bonus to hit, but still cause the target to be dazed for one round (or what have you). This should cause the basic attacks to be useful a significant portion of the time, which would make the game more interesting [to me].

Its not about how interesting the individual powers are, viewed in a vacuum. Its about how interesting the character as a whole is, viewed in total. Having things that you can do whenever you like makes your character, overall, more interesting. Reaping Strike might not be as awesome as an at will power in comparison to how awesome it would be if we enhanced it and made it an encounter power, but so what?
Doing the same thing all of the time is still doing the same thing all of the time, be it basic attack or an at will power. Viewing the powers in or out of a vacuum makes no difference to that fact. Using reaping strike every round is no more interesting in the long run than using basic attack every round. Repetition of ANY power is no more cool long term than repetition of basic attack (or full attack in 3.x).

A Chinese friend of mine eats Chinese food all of the time. He doesn't get the same pleasure from it that I get, because I only have Chinese food occasionally. The same concept applies to D&D, whether you think my reasoning is flawed or not.

Right now my human fighter has a suite of three at will attacks. Each individual power might be cooler as an encounter power, but my fighter is cooler as a guy who can choose between three different tactical effects at any given time than he would be if he couldn't. And its more important that my character be cool than that his attack powers be cool viewed in a vacuum and unconnected to him.
I find being able to do a few spectacular things to be cooler than to do many not-so-spectacular things. Our likes appear to differ on that point, and I doubt we'd be able to change the other's view point.
 

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