At-will class powers ruining my archetypes

Another solution is the Gladiator-article style of "Take this feat, modify your at-will".
I considered that, but it just seemed like a whole lot of work to modify an at will with implement keywords to work with a weapon. You'd need to change so many little things. It seemed easier to create a feat that granted you a power attached to your ranged basic attack that was functionally the same thing as Lance of Faith with a longbow.

I have to admit, I'm a little stymied here because I don't know Corellan's lore very well. I'm not completely clear on what his backstory is, or what powers his followers should have. I rarely play in established universes.
Could you also make it paladins? Because paladins suffer the same. I know "OMg defenders shouldn't be ranged", but a paladin of Corellan using a bow makes sense.
I'd like to, but I can't seem to work out a way to make ranged attacks work with the paladin's mark in an easy and balanced manner. You can take a look at my Godhammer paladin in my signature for a previous effort at doing this. Its a neat design, but I just can't get it right.

It almost seems like maybe the best solution is to switch things around, and create a multiclass path for Rangers that transforms them into a paladin of Corellan. They wouldn't have "Paladin" in their class name, but it seems like this would be much, much more efficient and much much more functional.

Multiclass Feat: Champion of Corellan
Prerequisite: Ranger, Must worship Corellan
Benefit: You may choose to deal Radiant damage with your ranged attacks that use a longbow.

Then the encounter does something Corellan and Smiting themed, the utility does something leaderish (like Lay on Hands 1/day), and the daily does something really badass.

You could also do this with a paragon path, though that would delay entry until level 11. Or you could go crazy and do both, if you wanted a whole lot of paladin of corellan powers.
 

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I don't confuse class with archtype. I ran a doppleganger thief in a game last year. She wasn't a Rogue or even multiclassed as Rogue, but was effective at being sneaky and manipulative.

You want an archtype that is good at something the obvious class isn't? Pick a different class and have your character call himself whatever you want. I've found it pretty effective for mixing things up a bit.
 

I mean, it kind of makes sense, but, if you make Reaping Strike an encounter power, there's STILL going to be a need for a generic attack power, and your complaints will STILL apply to whatever you use to replace Reaping Strike as the at will.

No, a basic attack would be the vanilla attack. It would be boring, but it is understandably boring not to mention easier and quicker in real time to resolve.

No you didn't. If you were a wizard, investing in dexterity so that your crossbow would be more accurate when you didn't want to use a spell was a noob mistake. Unless you knew your campaign was never going to get into the middle or high levels, it simply wasn't worth it. If you were getting something else out of it as well (maybe you like ray spells) then it was worthwhile. Otherwise, no.

Ah but what if you wanted to be a wizard that invests in a sword and you wanted to use that as your backup weapon to your spells. No wait wait I know the answer... play a swordmage.

Meh. It doesn't actually accomplish this goal unless you rework every class and adjust the power level. If you remove at will attacks, that trivially affects classes that use their primary ability score for their basic attacks, and greatly effects everyone else. Your elf archer cleric will still suck in an at will free system. He'll still suffer the same stat spread. Meanwhile the Fighter is still pumping strength just like before.

I understand this, this may simply be appropriate. Those that pump strength should be effective in melee. A wizard could pump strength and go into melee, if that was how a player wanted to play their character. If you want to play a single stat character then you are able to if you want to play a character that uses more than one stat say like a fighter who uses a bow you can easily do this. All of their powers would key off of melee stuff but maybe they want to use a bow or a sword for their vanilla attacks. If they have at-wills that make using a bow a poor tactical choice then they will 9 out of 10 times ignore the bow.

This would be doable, but merely removing at wills isn't enough. You'd need to rework the math.

This may very well be true. But I do know that removing them makes more character archetypes available for play.

Everyone worried that, in 4e, role would be destiny. People still worry about it, actually, even though it just shows that they don't know what they're talking about. Role isn't destiny. Role is incredibly mutable.

But power sources? Power sources are destiny.

I don't agree, but this is neither here nor there.

4e solved that by letting everyone do their shtick immediately, and at will. In the process, that kind of killed off dual shtick characters.

Except that your solution for resolving the problem of a cleric with a bow is to wait until 11th level. Yeah, touche'.

Multiclassing brings them back a bit. If you want to create an elven cleric archer, you can just make an elf cleric, and multiclass ranger. Or create an elf ranger, and multiclass cleric. You'll have to split your ability scores, but that's not really a crisis. If you're spending a lot of resources multiclassing a cleric into a ranger, dexterity will give you as much benefit as charisma would have given the straight cleric.

So spend a bunch of character creation resources to gain a couple of encounter/daily powers that will come into play 2-3 rounds out of a 12 round combat? This does not synergize in an acceptable way. Pull out my bow make a couple of attacks and then start shooting lazers. No, sorry doesn't work for me.

I suspect that this doesn't really satisfy you, because you want the look and feel of a weapon being a backup for limited use magic. You want the weapon to be the bread and butter, generic attack, and the magic to be the big splash. Multiclassing doesn't really do that. In response, there isn't much I can say, except that running things your way would deny ME the archetypes I like, so maybe this conflict isn't really resolvable.

You are right, this does make a nice point. What archetype would you be denied? You can literally run every character/weapon combination and not have any problems doing it. Explain to me how you are now limited in you weapon choice/class archetype. You are not, just like the RAW except that you are not taking sub-par choice for making your basic attacks with a non-class standard weapon.

Overall, though, I think that making at wills into encounter abilities in order to force people to spread their stats more and take basic attacks is fundamentally a bad idea. It doesn't undo the repetition problem, it makes it worse by forcing you to repeat your basic attack instead of your two or three at wills.

Again, the repetition problem is not that you do it over and over and that is bad. It is that no matter what your vanilla attack is basic or at-will it becomes dry and boring after doing it ~10 times in a combat. The reality is that most classes use only one at-will power, the one the character is designed around to use best.

It encourages stat spread, but that's not an intrinsic good from where I'm sitting.

Fair enough you prefer primary stats to be 18 or 20.

It denies access to as many archetypes as it encourages.

This is false.

It makes combat less tactical (even if my fighter has used up every encounter and daily power he has, I can still try to maneuver for a cleave or shift people around with footwork lure).

This could be true, some may not see this as automatically a good thing. I for one think that cutting any extra time out of an encounter to reduce grind is a good thing. If by your suggestion reduces grind I am all for it.

And an easier solution for the lost archetypes exists. Use encounter powers to encourage them. The encounter power system and the weapon/multiclass system actually provide a great framework for adding unusual things to classes, like archery to a cleric. It wouldn't be tough to draft a multiclass path just to make this archetype available. It would do a lot less violence to the system to make these corner case character concepts available via feats and optional encounter powers than to rework the math.

This is not a clean or easy solution and it does not do what you thought that 4e was supposed to do: "4e solved that by letting everyone do their shtick immediately, and at will. In the process, that kind of killed off dual shtick characters."
 

I don't confuse class with archtype. I ran a doppleganger thief in a game last year. She wasn't a Rogue or even multiclassed as Rogue, but was effective at being sneaky and manipulative.

You want an archtype that is good at something the obvious class isn't? Pick a different class and have your character call himself whatever you want. I've found it pretty effective for mixing things up a bit.

Well this is not intended to make skill based archetypes any different so I am not sure how this makes anything different.
 

This is not a cleric archer then.
Why not?

It played very similar to cleric archers I've seen. There was one in my Expedition to the Demonweb Pits game. Mostly, the cleric sat back and casted spells. When those weren't appropriate, they attacked with the bow. Now, at lower levels in 3e when a cleric's spells aren't as compelling, it may make a difference. But by 5th, we're looking at a single-stat Zen Archery spellcaster wearing heavy armor. Likely slinging more Hold Persons than arrows.

If you want a cleric archer who uses arrows a lot more than spells, I'd recommend starting them as a Ranger and multiclassing into Cleric, rather than the other way around.

I don't think you quite grasped the argument. Yes they are both boring. So why don't you just use the most simple one and make it the basic one so other ones are more interesting. Change them to encounter powers, give starting characters a couple more of them, and now you have opened up more interesting character archetypes.
I'm sorry, but I still don't quite know why that would be an improvement.

Wouldn't it maybe be a better solution to add more variety for at-wills to account for those other character archetypes you're looking for? (I'm also having a hard time imagining what other character archetypes you could be looking for - I get the cleric archer, but I hardly see the crossbow-slinging wizard as a perennial favorite.)

As an example of a new At-Will...

Divine Archery, At-Will 1
Weapon, Radiant
Wis vs AC
Hit: [W]+Wisdom Modifier Radiant damage

...and there's your cleric archer's main at-will. It's not too impressive, but it's cleric-y in that it uses Wisdom (much like the ubiquitous Zen Archery in 3e) and deals Radiant damage.

Whatever the actual vanilla attack is, it is less interesting if you do it 10 times in an encounter with your 2 encounter powers interspersed between. Give more encounter powers and make those vanilla attacks basic attacks and you wind up with a more desirable system. Not to mention the character design potentials that open up.
If your goal is to make things more varied, why not keep the at-wills but just add more Encounter abilities? This would encourage variety between characters, as well, since at-wills are a primary source of differences. There's plenty of folks who want to encourage more Encounter and Daily powers - I think there's a big thread about Power Recharge mechanics in the house-rules forum, for example.

Can you list some other design potentials that open up with this?

I realize this lowers effectiveness somewhat of non- STR and DEX based characters. What other far-reaching effects are you referring too?
That's not enough?

I think I'm still confused by what, specifically, you're going after here. Is it specifically wizardly and clerical at-wills that are the problem? What kinds of character archetypes and design innovations would be encouraged by removing at-wills, adding another encounter power, and making everyone basic attack all the time? How would the elimination of at-wills enhance character archetypes more than making new at-wills?

-O
 

my best friend currently plays a wizard with no weapons...and in a game a few months back we had a cleric with no weapons...he used his faith as his weapon...

how would they work in this new system...
 

Well this is not intended to make skill based archetypes any different so I am not sure how this makes anything different.

My point is that if I wanted to play a bow-weilding priest of Corellon, I'd make a Ranger multi'd into Cleric. And in fact, that was my other PC I've played in 4e.
 


My point is that if I wanted to play a bow-weilding priest of Corellon, I'd make a Ranger multi'd into Cleric. And in fact, that was my other PC I've played in 4e.
And really, what is the "Priest" archetype, exactly? Outside of D&D, I don't see a lot of "Clerics". Moses wasn't exactly dungeoncrawling, and he wasn't using weapons or anything, really. Friar Tuck never fought. Etc etc.

You could achieve a "Priest" archetype with any character; spreading your god's word, being reverent, and holding an official position in the Church is all in the roleplay, not in the mechanics. A ranger can be a priest, just like a wizard can be a priest. "I actually heal the wounded and buff my allies with Divine blessing", that's a Cleric (or a paladin, or a...) If your character can do the former without shootin' heals around, then by all means.

how would they work in this new system...
? Wizards don't carry weapons. Maybe in early 3e, where wizards used crossbows, but not today. Same with devoted clerics.

Hell, the bard in my group has a wand and a shield.
 
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Friar Tuck never fought.
according to some of the Robin Hood tales, Friar Tuck was a skilled swordsman and did fight. But I understand your point. :)

? Wizards don't carry weapons. Maybe in early 3e, where wizards used crossbows, but not today. Same with devoted clerics.

My 6th lvl eladrin wizard begs to differ with you. He is currently +13 attack and 1d8+11 damage with his +2 adamantine longsword. :)
 

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