Attacking the Darkness

[Olaf the Stout]

I hope rogues will be able to sneak attack elsewhere than in full light

Apparently 3.xE Rogues never attack anyone in the shadows. Well lit areas are obviously the best areas to conduct illicit killings!

Olaf the Stout

 

[coyote6]

My favourite part of the current lighting rules is the way that illumination changes depending on who's looking. A rogue can hide if he has concealment. If he's standing in the shadowy darkness at the edge of a light source's illumination zone, he can hide (assuming no one is watching him). A group of humans walks by, and they roll Spot against his Hide roll, and no one spots him. An elf walks by, and suddenly the rogue is not in shadowy darkness, so he can no longer hide. The elf does not need to roll spot in order to see him.

I don't think it works like that; nowhere that I know of do the rules say that low-light vision lets you count "shadowy illumination" as "bright" light levels (and thus avoid 20% miss chance, disallow Hiding, etc.). All Low-Light Vision does is:

"Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters."

And:

"Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to her as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day. "

If there's no "bright" light around (maybe there's a candle every 10 ft), and it's not outdoors on a moonlit night, then by the RAW, low-light vision does not a lot.

Yeah, the light rules should be fixed.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't think it works like that; nowhere that I know of do the rules say that low-light vision lets you count "shadowy illumination" as "bright" light levels (and thus avoid 20% miss chance, disallow Hiding, etc.). All Low-Light Vision does is:

"Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters."

Exactly. If you're a human, a torch sheds bright light to a radius of 20 feet, and shadowy illumination to a radius of 40 feet. If you're an elf, the same torch sheds bright light to 40 feet and shadowy illumination to 80 feet. If the human rogue is standing 50 feet away from the torch, it looks to him like he's in shadowy illumination, but to the elf, he's in bright light.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Exactly. If you're a human, a torch sheds bright light to a radius of 20 feet, and shadowy illumination to a radius of 40 feet. If you're an elf, the same torch sheds bright light to 40 feet and shadowy illumination to 80 feet. If the human rogue is standing 50 feet away from the torch, it looks to him like he's in shadowy illumination, but to the elf, he's in bright light.

What's the problem with this?

I mean, obviously the rogue won't be happy, but Elves have better eye sight. They're a different species than humans, and their eyes can see farther with light than humans can.

Why shouldn't the effects of light be different for species with different levels of eyesight?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I hate that.

I love it!

 

[TwinBahamut]

What's the problem with this?

I mean, obviously the rogue won't be happy, but Elves have better eye sight. They're a different species than humans, and their eyes can see farther with light than humans can.

Why shouldn't the effects of light be different for species with different levels of eyesight?

One problem is that it is somewhat unfair to rogues.

The bigger problem is that it is a nightmarish annoyance to keep track of.

I don't think I have ever seen the illumination rules used.

Eliminating low-light vision would help simplify things. At least that way you only have to deal with normal vision and darkvision (in addition to scent, blindsense, blindsight, etc... :\ ). Just having regions of light and dark would also be easier (though I can understand a reason for having dimly illuminated, having it be given off by torches is not needed).

 

[Lanefan]

Eliminating low-light vision would help simplify things. At least that way you only have to deal with normal vision and darkvision (in addition to scent, blindsense, blindsight, etc... :\ ). Just having regions of light and dark would also be easier (though I can understand a reason for having dimly illuminated, having it be given off by torches is not needed).

Figuring out what characters can see has never been a problem for me...then again, I still use infravision and ultravision.

While we're talking about light, though: can Light and Darkness *please* become ranged spells again, rather than touch.

Lanefan

 

[Testament]

(And as a side note, I hope they change the Darkness spell back into something that actually makes an area dark, and not just a little bit dimmer than normal.

Dear god I hope not. Old-style Darkness, especially when ranged, was a right royal pain in the lower back to run as a GM, and even worse as a player. It also made Devils absolute (pardon the pun) hell on wheels to fight. It was basically a 1st level Improved Invisibility field, and way out of line with what a 1st level spell should do.

My only problem with 3.5 darkness is the fact that strictly as written, it can create light in a totally unlit area.

 

[Perun]

I assume low-light vision and darkvision will work like they do in Star Wars Saga Edition now. Basically, low-light vision ignores concealment (but not total concealment) from darkness, and darkvision ignores any concealment for darkness, but is black and white. Range, basically, unlimited.

It's also worth mentioning that scent works in a similar manner, ignoring concealment and cover, but has a range listed.

Regards.

 

[OakwoodDM]

One problem is that it is somewhat unfair to rogues.

The bigger problem is that it is a nightmarish annoyance to keep track of.

I don't think I have ever seen the illumination rules used.

Eliminating low-light vision would help simplify things. At least that way you only have to deal with normal vision and darkvision (in addition to scent, blindsense, blindsight, etc... :\ ). Just having regions of light and dark would also be easier (though I can understand a reason for having dimly illuminated, having it be given off by torches is not needed).

What happens if it's the other way round? What if the Rogue's elven and the torch bearer's human? The guy with the torch wanders past, the rogue's still in shadows and hidden to him. However, the rogue thinks he's brightly lit. Does that mean he actually can't be hiding?