Attacking with Zone spells

[Maximilia]

Ok, so you guys are so awesome, I'm going to ask another question. We'll use Stinking Cloud as an example.

Wizard casts a spell creating a burst 2 zone. Initially, they get to attack each creature within the burst upon creation of the burst. My question here is (on behalf of our DM, but I want to make sure we're using this correctly) if the wizard sac's their move to move the zone, and the zone now covers new creatures, do they get another "attack" with the zone when it is initially moved, or do the creatures just take the d10+Int modifier damage when they start their turn in the zone?

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Ok, so you guys are so awesome, I'm going to ask another question. We'll use Stinking Cloud as an example.

Wizard casts a spell creating a burst 2 zone. Initially, they get to attack each creature within the burst upon creation of the burst. My question here is (on behalf of our DM, but I want to make sure we're using this correctly) if the wizard sac's their move to move the zone, and the zone now covers new creatures, do they get another "attack" with the zone when it is initially moved, or do the creatures just take the d10+Int modifier damage when they start their turn in the zone?

No, no new attack occurs. They take the damage for starting their turn in the zone

The Hit entry only occurs once when the wizard "casts" the spell. After that just apply the Effect and Sustain Minor entries.

But be aware that this answer is tied to stinking cloud. Another zone spell might allow you to repeat the attack and hit entries.

 

[Maximilia]

Excellent, thank you very much.

 

[webrunner]

Note that some zone spells have additional wording such as:
"a creature starting it's turn in the zone or entering the zone is subject to a secondary attack"
then detailing the attack.

This case would result in a secondary attack.

 

[chitzk0i]

Some zones allow damage against creatures entering the zone. That damage only occurs if a) the powers say "enters the zone or starts its turn there" and b) the creature enters the zone, not if the zone is moved to cover the creature.

 

[InspectorHound]

I believe the trend is to only allow monsters to be damaged when they >voluntarily< enter the zone (i.e. on their turn, not when you push/pull/slide them into the zone).
This is to keep lower level powers, like at-wills that last a turn (eg. cloud of daggers) from becoming abused. Otherwise, you get to 'double-dip' your damage: dmg when you push them in, dmg when they start their turn.
And before you start complaining about nerfing, remember this cuts both ways: I've had more than one PC get brutalized by this double-dipping (either through dmg or lock-down effects) before our group opted to interpret the meaning of "enter the zone" more specifically.

 

[Al'Kelhar]

I believe the trend is to only allow monsters to be damaged when they >voluntarily< enter the zone (i.e. on their turn, not when you push/pull/slide them into the zone)...

This is similar to the house-rule I've used since 4E came out, to ensure consistency in application of ongoing effects. Essentially, a creature can only be affected by a zone or other ongoing effect once during any turn. The effect occurs when the first trigger condition is satisfied. Thus, for example, if a creature suffers damage from a zone if it "enters or starts its turn" in the zone, then it suffers the effect either when it enters or when it starts it turn, whichever occurs first. And I consider that "entry" must be voluntary, although it doesn't have to occur on the creatures turn (if, for example, the creature is allowed to move outside its turn by the power of an ally).

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

 

[Aulirophile]

I believe the trend is to only allow monsters to be damaged when they >voluntarily< enter the zone (i.e. on their turn, not when you push/pull/slide them into the zone).
This is to keep lower level powers, like at-wills that last a turn (eg. cloud of daggers) from becoming abused. Otherwise, you get to 'double-dip' your damage: dmg when you push them in, dmg when they start their turn.
And before you start complaining about nerfing, remember this cuts both ways: I've had more than one PC get brutalized by this double-dipping (either through dmg or lock-down effects) before our group opted to interpret the meaning of "enter the zone" more specifically.

Applying that to all zones would be a houserule, and not RAW. Forced movement into a zone counts as the creature entering the zone (and, indeed, if you have a multi-square slide you can repeatedly slide monsters into and out of said zones).

 

[InspectorHound]

You're right, Aulirophile.
I did some searching in the WotC forums and found this enlightening thread from earlier in the year:
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Seems that WotC Cust Svc is just as inconsistent and confused as we are.

(side note: looks like I was playing my Wizard's Wall of Fire wrong -- in that I can't use Phantom Bolt to move someone into the wall. Sheesh, it's hard to come up with 4 squares of slide...)

As someone who both plays and DMs, it seems clear to me that some PC powers and some monster powers end up providing way more damage/control than their level would dictate if the damage/effects are applied when a player or creature is forced to enter a zone and are applied a second time when starting in the zone.
As a DM, though, it's easy to adjust a monster's powers accordingly, but with a player's powers, you really need to talk it out, 'cause their whole reason for selecting a power could be because of the potential to abuse this double-jeopardy with forced movement.

So until such time as WotC cleans up their moves/enters language, I'm still gonna work it out on a case by case basis. Fortunately, my group is open to such discussions (fairly low on the aggressive rules lawyering).

BACK TO THE INITIAL QUESTION: Maximilia -- reading the WotC thread, it does seem clear that if the PC moves the zone onto a creature, that that does >not< constitute moving into or entering the zone so that particular scenerio doesn't double-dip any damage or effects.