Yeah; there are 25 swordmage powers with the teleportation keyword which let you teleport various distances under various conditions. Only one (a level 6 utility) just lets you teleport when it's not part of an attack.
attacking without attacking
- Thread starter Flipguarder
- Start date
Yeah; there are 25 swordmage powers with the teleportation keyword which let you teleport various distances under various conditions. Only one (a level 6 utility) just lets you teleport when it's not part of an attack.
Nahat Anoj
First Post
Well, FWIW I think you made the right call "by the book." But I probably would have just let him teleport without making attacks. In general, I feel a power shows what the PC is entitled to do. If a PC doesn't want to utilize the full scope of his entitlement, that's the PC's prerogative. He's only shortchanging himself.
However, again, it's your game and you can interpret it any way you please. Perhaps, in order to unlock the magic of the teleport, the character *must* make an attack. It's kind of like the somatic component for the spell.
DracoSuave
First Post
There's one that allows you to teleport and switch positions with an ally (level 2)
There's a few that teleport as triggered by other events.
But then again, Swordmage only needs -one- teleport utility at an early level in order to have that utility well covered.
But that's splitting hairs... it's easily available.
I was initially surprised there is so much disagreement on this issue (but seeing the rules quotes people are using I can now understand why).
Personally, I have always ruled that for effects the attack roll isn't necessary...basically its the equivalent of you attack the empty air scenario. It adds more utility to certain powers...and I think rulings that open up 4e's stringent power system is a good thin.
Personally, I have always ruled that for effects the attack roll isn't necessary...basically its the equivalent of you attack the empty air scenario. It adds more utility to certain powers...and I think rulings that open up 4e's stringent power system is a good thin.
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Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
I don't like using flavor text as a guideline for rules; I think whatever fluff text appears reflects simply how a power might look in combat because combat is what the writers had in mind when they wrote it. I don't think fluff text is supposed to reflect any solid definition of how a power works or its limitations. That being the case, I have let swordmages use attack powers out of combat to take advantage of their utility potential, and I'll allow it again if it ever comes up.
Further, and I don't mean to sound judgmental when I say this, but I'd be annoyed with a DM who ruled otherwise. Because, while it is worthy of OotS,
is patently absurd and has no place in any game, unless it's a diliberately tongue-in-cheek campaign. If a DM ruled against using an attack power's utility potential outside of combat, I'd start to think that he was looking for excuses to screw the PCs over. I mean, what's more reasonable: that Dual Lightning Strike reflects a character's expertise in combining two distinct abilities [that he had to learn separately first and are independent from one another], or that Dual Lightning Strike reflects a bizarre spell that requires the character to attack [and that the spell somehow knows the difference between attacking the air, which has no hp and attacking an air elemental which does]? I'd say the first one is much more likely.
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Flipguarder
First Post
First off, I used the flavor text because someone suggested it, I was attempting to understand the raI understanding of the idea.
Second, I did not suggest the second idea. It's not a matter of the swordmage not being able to teleport (he can as a utility power).
Third, I'm not anthropomorphizing the power, I'm trying to figure out if my inital gut feeling that the designers did not intend for attack powers to be used outside of attacking people is shared by others on this forum.
Fourth, I kind of feel as though you are trading one "flavor-based ruling" for another. You say I can't use the description of the power and the fact that it has targets in my ruling. Then you go and claim that the idea of a swordmage only teleporting by attacking something is ridiculous. I think flavor has just about as much input into the rules of D&D as "what makes sense"
Bottom line, my understanding is that attack powers that have targets were intended to be used in combat, and their effects should not be counted as "additional encounter utility powers"
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
You're right; I am trading one vague single-lined fluff-based ruling for my own more holistic one. I'm favoring the one that makes more sense to me, and that allows the DM to say YES rather than NO. I therefore challenge you to come up with a fluff-based explanation for not being able to use Dual Lightning Strike's teleport outside of combat that doesn't come off as the DM reaching for an excuse to say NO.
Ruling that 'it's an attack power and therefore is only meant for combat' is more palatable, because at least it's objective and I don't have to guess which powers it applies to. But I can't say I'm crazy about such a gamist rationale.
Finally, if you ever hear conclusively from a designer what the RAI is on this issue I'd love to hear it.
Flipguarder
First Post
I'm a fairly conservative DM, but that doesn't mean I'm reaching to say NO. I'm simply interpreting the rules how I interpret them to be intended. And i believe in the "say yes" rule much more tentatively than other DMs. I simply reach to say YES much less often than other DMs
That's my whole argument. And what do you know! a gamist rationale works in a game. I'm not trying to ruin the game here, as you seem to think. All I'm doing is attempting to interpret the rules as I think they were meant to be interpreted.
Right back atcha. Just because I don't have conclusive evidence of my point is not conclusive evidence that you are correct.
You can read it for yourself at page 40 DMG
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
No need to be sarcastic and defensive; you're the one asking for input. I could wax poetic about how D&D is supposed to be a true rpg, rather than an imitation like Diablo where PCs arbitrarily cannot teleport within town. But I won't because I respect your prerogative as DM to make whatever call you see fit.
Page 40 is a guide for running combat smoothly, so it's hardly conclusive evidence of out-of-combat RAI. Again, as someone has already pointed out, the Dual Lightning Strike situation is not like carrying around a bag of rats to heal allies. The player is expending a resource in order to teleport; even if the PC can get it back with a 5 minute rest, he doesn't know that. For all he knows, using the power to teleport will trigger an encounter.
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