attacking without attacking

See, yes. You -can- target a square. At which point you see the rules that tell you how to do so... and BAM you're targetting a creature as a part of that very system! The -rules for targetting a square- inform you that you are -in fact- targetting a creature as you do so.

Unless you're refering to some other rules for targetting a square that I haven't seen yet. Could you point those out?

On what do you base this interpretation? p.272 states you may target an empty square. It informs you that this is useful when combating invisible foes (and refers you to p.281 for more info about targeting invisible foes). Page 281 (heavily updates) says that if you are targeting invisible foes, you should do XYZ. It does not say that you must be targeting invisible foes.
 

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See, yes. You -can- target a square. At which point you see the rules that tell you how to do so... and BAM you're targetting a creature as a part of that very system! The -rules for targetting a square- inform you that you are -in fact- targetting a creature as you do so.

Unless you're refering to some other rules for targetting a square that I haven't seen yet. Could you point those out?
Ok, so there's a textual rules issue here. However...

More Importantly:
The rules are written colloquially. Attempting to resolve this dispute by going through the text with an extraordinarily fine comb is like finding detail in a jpeg that's been enlarged until the screen is filled by part of one pixel. You're not seeing useful detail; you're seeing enlargement artifacts.

Take the text at face value: it mentions targeting empty squares in passing and focuses on invisible foes. The rules are blurry on everything else pertaining to this matter. They don't say if you need a target in the first place, they don't say what to do if your target isn't a creature, they don't even say what happens to the "Effect" and "Miss" lines at all if you miss an invisible creature entirely by virtue of picking the wrong square (miss: half-damage?!.. but he just teleported to another plane!). The rules don't explicitly mention in which order the effects of an attack need to be resolved, even though there is usually only one reasonable order (or the order doesn't matter). The rules don't define what to do if one or more of the effects are impossible or nonsensical.

Most of these things have reasonable solutions - but those reasonable solutions might unfortunately be situational or subject to considerable table-variation. There are huge gaping holes in the "rules" if you consider them to be a precise spec. A DM needs to fill in those gaps with common sense, and fortunately it usually just doesn't matter or is obvious so the game will remain consistent without much effort.

Sometimes there is fuzziness that isn't obviously resolvable however, and then there's one clearly wrong way to try and resolve the imprecision: Trying to reason about in-game results based on unintentional textual details is unlikely to make the game more playable.

It's clear what to do with "Effect:" and "Miss:" lines when part of (1) attacks against visible foes. It's less clear but still reasonable to do the same when part of (2) attacks against squares containing invisible foes. Even at this stage though, I could imagine a reasonable DM ruling that a miss-effect might occasionally not occur. It's even less clear what to do when used as part of (3) an attack targeting an empty square that the PC hoped would contain an invisible foe - presumably most reasonable DM's would not have the missed creature take any negative effects, but allow the PC to use unrelated benefits. And finally, it's unclear what to do in our case: (4) when the PC targets a square believed to be empty.

In the range of possibilities from (1) to (4), it'd be nice to have some consistency. But somewhere along that range, you almost certainly want "Miss:" and "Effect:" line effects that affect the target to stop working. Perhaps in step (3) - with the reasoning that you can't affect a creature at all if you get the square wrong? Perhaps in step (2) - with the reasoning that your target was the square not the creature and that thus the miss effect applies to the square (which is unaffected) and not the creature? Or perhaps it's power-dependent?

The point is, we're better of dealing with the fact that the situation is not clearly defined and making a reasonable ruling than grasping at textual straws and risking an unreasonable ruling.

So, if you believe that the effect should not happen - you may have a fine argument. But if you believe that this comma on that page, when read in conjunction with this other sentence in another book and without reference to common sense mean that the rules really say the effect does (not) happen - well, color me unconvinced. The rules say nothing of the sort since they don't much say anything at this level of detail.
 
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A more interesting case to consider would be the 1st-level wizard daily spell acid arrow, which targets one creature and which, on a hit, makes a secondary attack on each creature adjacent to the primary target. (The 1st-level wizard encounter spell force orb works in a similar fashion but muddies the issue slightly by having a Target of "one creature or object").

Unfortunately Acid Arrow falls down on the "bag of rats" test and why I didn't word the power in that fashion. Acid Arrow requires a Hit to trigger the secondary effect. If you allow Acid Arrow to do splash damage, why can't the cleric hit nothing and get the hit effect of healing allies? This is one where I would say the rules are actually against it, but am more inclined to one off rule it differently.

Lightning Bolt (7th level wizard power) is a better example as the secondary attacks are not reliant on a hit, just target cratures within 10 of the primary target.
 

The funny thing about Special lines is that they permit you to break the rules. Hense why it's a Special: that tells you to move before the attack, rather than an effect which occurs post-targetting.

Okay then, what about if you substitute the Swordmage's Luring Strike power (Arcane Power page 51)?

That is an effect line, coming after the target line (after the Hit line if you want to be precise). It says, "Effect: Before or after the attack you can shift 1 square".

That isn't a Special line, yet I'm fairly certain you can use it against a creature even if there is one square separating you. That in turn suggests that you may be mistaken as to how Target lines are resolved.
 

The funny thing about Special lines is that they permit you to break the rules. Hense why it's a Special: that tells you to move before the attack, rather than an effect which occurs post-targetting.

You move before the attack; you don't move before you begin resolving the power.

-Hyp.
 

You move before the attack; you don't move before you begin resolving the power.

-Hyp.

Again. Special.

Power contradicts rules, power takes precedence. You cannot target the power -before- the move, it is impossible. So therefore it contradicts the need for a power to have a target until after the move.
 

A more interesting case to consider would be the 1st-level wizard daily spell acid arrow, which targets one creature and which, on a hit, makes a secondary attack on each creature adjacent to the primary target. (The 1st-level wizard encounter spell force orb works in a similar fashion but muddies the issue slightly by having a Target of "one creature or object").
Doesn't seem to muddy. An Acid Arrow can target a creature, and you make secondary attacks if you hit that creature. A Force Orb can target an object, as well, and you make secondary attacks even if you hit the object. I've used Force Orb to make the secondary attack against enemies standing next to pillar, and even, in one case, behind a merlon. Acid Arrow doesn't let you do the same. Why /shouldn't/ it? No idea, maybe they were written by two different guys at two different times, and it just didn't occur to the one writing Acid Arrow?

Writing 4e powers is not as easy as it seems. They're fairly short descriptions, especially compared to earlier ed spells, and they're /laden/ with keywords and rulespeak. It's very easy to write something you didn't quite intend to into a power.

Common sense is thus your best guide.
 

Again. Special.

Power contradicts rules, power takes precedence. You cannot target the power -before- the move, it is impossible. So therefore it contradicts the need for a power to have a target until after the move.

Except it isn't impossible.

Let's say I start one square south of the orc. I'm adjacent - he's within range of Melee Weapon, and therefore a valid target. I activate the power, and move two squares - one west, one north, provoking an OA - and attack the orc, who is still within range of Melee Weapon.

The Special doesn't make your normal targeting rule impossible, therefore there's no contradiction.

-Hyp.
 

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM

No one breaks the law on my watch!

This forum seems to have a habit of losing my posts... but in reply to this I have to say LOLZ

I can target a square instead of an enemy/creature. Instead, in place of, as a substitution for. The first point was that an enemy and a creature are the same thing and replacing an enemy with a square means you are replacing what you are targetting entirely. Where in the rules does it say "you can target a square for an attack power when trying to locate an invisible enemy"? It doesn't, why? Because you do not need a specific enemy to target a square with an attack power.

And you completely ignored the 2 other examples where you are using attack powers to target squares completely independently of creatures/threats to attack.

No one is claiming you can't target a square, they're just saying to do so you have to be targeting a creature you're trying to find as part of -the rules for targeting a square instead of a creature.-

So where are these square targeting rules that don't say you do that?

Errr, where in the rules does it say you can only target a square when trying to target a creature? It doesn't. On that paragraph on page 272 it makes no further restrictions about targeting a square other than you can do so instead of targeting a creature. That to me says at any time the rules say I have to target a creature I can substitute the creature with a square. IE, I can target a square without having a creature around. Anywhere. Ever.
 


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