Invisible Stalker
First Post
I'll vote to drop them from the basic game, but added as an option for the fighter classes.
Attacks of Opportunity
- Thread starter Falling Icicle
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TheAuldGrump
First Post
I will be honest - getting rid of Attacks of Opportunity would be a deal breaker for me.
I would look at 5e, shrug, then keep on playing Pathfinder.
Mind you, if they follow something along the lines of BECMI then AoO could be in the equivalent of Expert, and not bother me.
The Auld Grump
I would look at 5e, shrug, then keep on playing Pathfinder.
Mind you, if they follow something along the lines of BECMI then AoO could be in the equivalent of Expert, and not bother me.
The Auld Grump
FinalSonicX
First Post
AoO's are absolutely necessary for me to enjoy a new edition of D&D. I would understand if it was an optional rule or a modular add-on, but the rules need to be made available in the PHB and clearly explained and tested so that they can be used successfully.
To me, AoO's serve an important purpose: they dissuade archers and mages from going into melee (thus deepening the combat tactics involved and introducing an interesting weakness for ranged and magical classes), and to allow the front line of combatants to dissuade or seriously hurt enemies who want to get past them to kill the squishy folk behind them.
To me, the best way to handle AoO's is to reduce the list of things that trigger an AoO. The following list is what makes sense to me:
To me, AoO's serve an important purpose: they dissuade archers and mages from going into melee (thus deepening the combat tactics involved and introducing an interesting weakness for ranged and magical classes), and to allow the front line of combatants to dissuade or seriously hurt enemies who want to get past them to kill the squishy folk behind them.
To me, the best way to handle AoO's is to reduce the list of things that trigger an AoO. The following list is what makes sense to me:
- Casting a Spell in melee
- Shooting a ranged weapon and/or Reloading in melee
- Leaving a guarded area
So are you saying nothing else could fulfill that purpose and replace AoO?
BTW, in our games they seldom affect ranged weapons or spellcasters that much, since usually there's space to 5' step away from melee before taking the action.
What do you think of this system, something I use in my games. I'm not going into detail, but you get the gist.
*) Anytime you are in melee combat and you drop your guard, your opponent gets one free melee attack.
*) What causes you to drop your guard is not the same as the opportunity attack list. Casting does, as does most missile weapons. Potions may depending on where they are stored. Basically, if I can imagine you doing the action and still continue to pay attention and interact with your attacker you haven't dropped your guard. Combat casting let's you roll a check to see if you dropped your guard.
*) If you have dropped your guard, you lose some of your Dex bonuses to AC.
*) Moving in melee does not necessarily cause you to drop your guard, you can move at a lower rate while maintaining your guard. You can't move toward your opponent, however, even diagonally, more than 5'. You can move sideways.
*) However, anyone in melee with you has the option to *follow* you as you move (even though it isn't their turn), up to their movement limit. If you break and run, you drop your guard.
*) Fighters and other melee based classes can gain abilities that punish opponents that attempt to move in directions other than directly away from them while maintaining their guard.
It's a little more complicated than AoO, but it feels natural when describing combat, and therefore seems less confusing to players. And it even works without miniatures.
(I sometimes use minis if necessary, but I don't use squares, instead everybody has measuring sticks. No square cones for me.)
*) Anytime you are in melee combat and you drop your guard, your opponent gets one free melee attack.
*) What causes you to drop your guard is not the same as the opportunity attack list. Casting does, as does most missile weapons. Potions may depending on where they are stored. Basically, if I can imagine you doing the action and still continue to pay attention and interact with your attacker you haven't dropped your guard. Combat casting let's you roll a check to see if you dropped your guard.
*) If you have dropped your guard, you lose some of your Dex bonuses to AC.
*) Moving in melee does not necessarily cause you to drop your guard, you can move at a lower rate while maintaining your guard. You can't move toward your opponent, however, even diagonally, more than 5'. You can move sideways.
*) However, anyone in melee with you has the option to *follow* you as you move (even though it isn't their turn), up to their movement limit. If you break and run, you drop your guard.
*) Fighters and other melee based classes can gain abilities that punish opponents that attempt to move in directions other than directly away from them while maintaining their guard.
It's a little more complicated than AoO, but it feels natural when describing combat, and therefore seems less confusing to players. And it even works without miniatures.
(I sometimes use minis if necessary, but I don't use squares, instead everybody has measuring sticks. No square cones for me.)
Nebulous
Legend
Yeah, i would leave this as a special ability for fighter-types and certain skilled monsters. Making it much more rare would speed up game play considerably.
From a simulationist point of view, does it make sense that characters are frozen in time whenever it's not their turn? Does it make sense that the players can simply rush past front-line enemies to get at the squishy caster in back?
I actually really don't like how AoO's were implemented in 3e, but I can understand why they exist, from both a simulationist and game balance point of view. Basically, characters in both 3e and 4e can move way too far in a signle round, and by "too far" I mean far enough to make lines of defense kind of pointless, because the average battle matt is only about two-feet wide.
Where AoO's went off the rails for me is when they simply became resource sinks. Sure, spellcasting provoked oppies--if you don't properly invest in defensive casting bonuses. Disarming, tripping, bull-rushing, were all dicey maneuvers that were hardly worth looking up--unless, of course, you invested in the proper feats to get big bonuses AND eliminated oppies.
I don't mind them being in the new edition, I just want them to be implemented for sensible reasons.
How am I supposed to have my 18str/18dex character with combat reflexes defend the top of a ladder in a tower all by himself against 4-8 orcs without attacks of opportunity?
aoo/oa's simulate that it should be possible to defend a space - make it hard to go past you. I actually like the idea. It works best with the 1-2-1-2 cost of going diagonal, otherwise you can often just go around. aoo and 1-2-1-2 cost of movement is too slow...
When I played AD&D I allowed some movement out-of-turn to make it harder to go past somebody. In other words your target tried to get in your way. It takes less time, makes more sense, combat is less like a board game and feels more real. On the other hand it's very arbitrary and dependant on the DM.
aoo/oa's simulate that it should be possible to defend a space - make it hard to go past you. I actually like the idea. It works best with the 1-2-1-2 cost of going diagonal, otherwise you can often just go around. aoo and 1-2-1-2 cost of movement is too slow...
When I played AD&D I allowed some movement out-of-turn to make it harder to go past somebody. In other words your target tried to get in your way. It takes less time, makes more sense, combat is less like a board game and feels more real. On the other hand it's very arbitrary and dependant on the DM.
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