Attn everyone: Fantasy world arms race experiment!

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Sorry I'm late

I would love to get in one this. Will there be a new thread for each episode? Otherwise this may get unwieldy...

In actuality, I think there is a pretty good chance that some sort of ritualized contact will be established between these two peoples. Otherwise I'm fairly certain that the plains people will possess the advantage and either wipe out or displace the hill people.

The likeliest scenario I can picture is that the greater mobility, weapons technology, and information gathering advantages of the plains people would grant them victory. As they ambush more and more of the hill people hunting and watering parties the comparative disparity of the two tribes grows. Hill people attempts to burn out the plains people are likely to fail as the plains people will have good experience with surviving wildfires. Eventually the hill people use the advantage of the captured boy to 'negotiate' a truce and move further into the hills where their mastery of fire gives them the ability to deal with the colder terrain. There their numbers increase but slightly, they become tougher and more technologically proficient, particularly as they develop primitive armor in response to the cold, and good rope, climbing, and communication techniques in response to the terrain.

I love all the magical developments that came out of the discussion so far.

I would like to add the following points.

Spear technology is harder than fire. Straightening wood to make a good spear is a very difficult technology to develop and master. While the hill people might gain the capability or idea to form nasty clubs or short darts, I doubt they will develop spears without either peaceful exchange, a hostage, or lots of effort and time. The plains people will probably master fire, but will tend to be more cautious of its use due to their vulnerable environment and bad memories.

Another consequence of the war would be the development of better fighters in the plains tribes and stronger sorcerors among the hill. The plains fighters would benefit from stronger experiences in killing rival hunting and watering parties where the hill sorcerors would gain great experience from defending their caves. I like that the plains' shamans become broader, but I think the fire shamans are going to have learned more fiercely from their experience on the front lines.

Further, I see the plains people becoming decadent in their ascendancy while the hill people nurse their power on the bitter teat of defeat.

It's your classic elf-drow conflict all over again...

 

[Feanor Starym]

maybe you should turn the tribe into elves then

 

[s/LaSH]

Let's see what might happen:

The hill tribe suffered at the hands of the werewolf, but it was driven back with some special item. Thus, the hill tribe comes to revere talismans and, especially, special weapons (not common weapons, but special ones, perhaps even metal); they'll probably develop individual 'signature' weapons, maybe developing a wider range of weaponry. They're also likely to develop forms of trickery (as they gained spears through this method).
Thinking for the future, they might want to develop fire that resists dousing (Continual Flame? maybe not just yet), and traps (as they have the advantage of declaring where the enemy has to travel).
Because of their reduced population, it might be in their best interests to develop education (passing on secrets between people) and promote individual excellence, as opposed to teamwork (which is harder with a smaller team). And because they need more people, they might consider raiding for women the next time the plainsfolk show up (sexist, maybe, but women are the only ones that can make babies). Maybe they'll develop armour to help against weapons (of which the enemies probably have superior technology).

The plains tribe hates fire, but enjoyed great success buffing their warrior. It's logical that more buff spells will be developed in time. They might develop flame-resistant tents, but that's unlikely at this tech level. They don't have fire, but it's not necessary at this time; they've got numbers, they've got fertile plains, they can live off the land. They weren't bold hunters before, but now that they've got a taste of violence they could very well start hunting big game.
Planning for the possibilty of another conflict, the plainsfolk know that they need to defend against flame-wielding raiders. They require a more sophisticated watch system, and institute teams of guards with dogs that patrol the borders of their camp at all times. They also keep a good amount of water at hand.
In fact, they could easily develop Produce Water spells. This gives them a unique advantage: they can go into arid terrain for many days at a time. Using this technology, they can reach new regions. However, unless they reach new tribes (which introduces new complications), that's not going to serve the scenario too well.
Spears gave the plainsfolk a great advantage in the early skirmishes. The cavefolk have them too, so the plainsfolk need a new weapon technology. A longspear, made from a bigger tree, lets you attack things deep in holes without risking your own hide, or stab at someone over a fire. They also discover an interesting fact: if you balance it right, you can throw a spear at a distance! (I surmise that walking stick spears were completely unsuitable for this purpose.) Armed with primitive ranged weapons, the plainsfolk feel quite grand.
Finally, because of the internal schism and its brutal denouement, the plainsfolk are somewhat in awe of their sorceress leader, who finds herself ruling with an iron fist. Those who speak out are obviously wrong, and may be punished for it. This leads in short order to a working set of laws, although these laws aren't quite what we have today: it's more 'things you should do' and if you do something a different way, you're dragged before the Sorceress for judgement.

Is that logical?

 

[Sixchan]

Wrap up:
The hillians would burn the Grasslands quite early on, likely before the Plainars discover fire. Both sides can fight better while seemingly on the defensive (like retreating, then pulling a tactic as mentioned in my above post), and on their home terrain.

At some point, the Shamans of the Hill tribe will learn the Cantrip Light, so that they can give the impression of false caves and false troops.

I personally believe it is too early for Lycanthropy, since I am of the feeling that monsters should no show up when there is no way to beat them, otherwise they would just make it too easy.

 

[schporto]

Hill Folk:
Defensive Tactic:
Living in caves in hills, the paths up to the caves are trapped with deadfalls and fire traps. These traps appear in rings allowing for layered defense.

Offensive Tactic:
Burn the plain's peoples fields. Burn their villiage. Burn their livestock. Use a small force upwind to light fires at night. This will cause the plains people to run away from the fire to the main force of the hill people.

Plain People:
Defensive Tactic:
Mobility. Keep camping in different places. Use dogs and patrols to keep camp safe at night. Trust to your fishing for food. Plant multiple fields to allow for food from many sources.

Offensive Tactic:
Siege. Encircle the hill people's tribe and trap them. Deny them food untill they surender. Have your animals help by attacking any who try to escape. Foul the waters if possible. You have animal and human waste to foul the water's with. As you can talk to the animals, have them avoid the area, thus reducing the food for the hill people more.

Who wins? Probably the Hill people. They have the higher ground. They have fire. The siege is a great equalizer though.
-cpd

 

[Nail]

Wrap up:
I personally believe it is too early for Lycanthropy, since I am of the feeling that monsters should no show up when there is no way to beat them, otherwise they would just make it too easy.

And here's the problem with this whole idea (even though it's a GREAT idea, RangerWickett):

What about all of those fantastic creatures running around? Where are they?

Moreover: If magic is known, how can it be mysterious?....but I guess that'll come later in the simulation, right?

So far, the simulation seems to have shown that magic-users rule the roost. Magocracies and theocracies should develop. After all, what's a Ftr1 gonna do against a were-wolf?

Finally: What about summoning spells? Summoned celestial badgers, anyone?

 

[Sixchan]

And here's the problem with this whole idea (even though it's a GREAT idea, RangerWickett):

What about all of those fantastic creatures running around? Where are they?

Moreover: If magic is known, how can it be mysterious?....but I guess that'll come later in the simulation, right?

So far, the simulation seems to have shown that magic-users rule the roost. Magocracies and theocracies should develop. After all, what's a Ftr1 gonna do against a were-wolf?

Finally: What about summoning spells? Summoned celestial badgers, anyone?

I'm not sure if it shows that. A caster is still going to have the floor wiped with him in battles against fighters until later levels. In Military situations, casters are vitally important, but in social ones, might usually makes right.

Casters are also divided from normal social society most of the time. Divine casters have the gods to consider, and usually do not try to rule by command if they are good. Neutral Clerics won't want to rule unless they are LN, and Evil clerics will only need one decent good-aligned fighter (perhaps even the first paladin) to rally the troops and people to his cause of good and wipe them away.
Arcane casters that are good would likely use magic to help, rather than rule, casters that are neutral will tend to prefer to study, and again evil arcanists suffer from first-paladin syndrome.

Mageocracies and Theocracies will happen, but they will rarely be good aligned (as these people will be ruling because they want to help, not because they think they are better) or neutral (aside from LN), and evil ones will eventually recieve their first Paladin.
On the other hand, Monarchies and Military rule will be likely to happen because of the strength of low-level fighters over casters. By the time the casters can win, most of them will be secluded scholars, Royal Advisors, or Warrior Priests.

IMO, of course.

 

[LostSoul]

Hill Folk:
Offensive Tactic:
Burn the plain's peoples fields. Burn their villiage. Burn their livestock. Use a small force upwind to light fires at night. This will cause the plains people to run away from the fire to the main force of the hill people.

The Plains tribe doesn't have fields or villiages. They're still nomadic.

 

[Tonguez]

I'd just like to point out that even on earth most early socieities tended to be Theocracies anyway. Most 'tribal cultures' work on a balance between Shaman and War-chief, and even the first Civilisations were theocratic (take Egypts God-king Pharoah for instance). Also according to the beliefs of those socieities their Shaman/Priest DID use 'magic' except that it was very low level stuff (as seen here)

Anyway back to the Scenario.

The Wolfman is a celebrated warrior amongst the Plainsfolk and many rally around him and his leadership. He begins to breed and this gives rise to children who have wolfish characteristics - the first of the Gnoll race.

The Wolf Spirit is venerated and eventually gains the name Yenoghu.

The raids of the Wolf-spirit Warriors that follow the Wolfman and his progeny begin to take their toll on the hill people who retreat deeper into the caves or are slaughtered.

However the savage, bloodthirsty ways of the Wolf-spirit Warriors leads to a schism between them and the True Humans amongst the Plainsfolk. This Schism leads to civil war and the True Humans escape ironically seeking the shelter of the caves!

This leaves the Plains to the gnolls who eventually become a seperate genetic species (eww evolution in action!

The True Humans now occupy the surface caves. Stories begin to circulate of a ghost he watches the True Humans laughing. Those who can seem to hear him say "See the Hillmen won the day afterall!"

Far below however a few survivors from the Hill people have discovered a series of huge caverns with their own water and air sources and an amazing ecology. They settle here and use their knowledge of fire to create forges, fueled by lichen, for the newly discovered metals. They become shorter and stockier with a denser muscle mass. Thick beards grow on both males and females and they too becopme a seperate species - Dwarfs

(ooc yah know I might use this idea for a PbP game - this could be a great method for creation of a new world setting)

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

At this level of society, things are small enough that most activities will be lead by the person who knows more about that activity and major decision will probably involve some sort of council presided over by whichever member of the society is most profecient in rituals.

When you get lots of these societies living in proximity for lengthy periods of time, as in Australia, you tend to also pick lots of rituals and ritual laws that have very pragmatic origins and heavy penalties for trangression.

I don't know that fire is that great an advantage in combat at this point as even peoples that don't have fire will understand the basic principles of how fire works when it is chasing you and thus how you should avoid it. The plains people might loose their camp, but I think they are unlikely to take heavy casualties from the incident.

Higher ground is a distinct advantage, but only when you can control it. I think the better intelligence capabilities and understanding of mobility that the plains tribe possesses largely negates this advantage, as long as the plain's tribe isn't foolish enough to assault a cave without something like a lycanthrope up front.