Augment Summoning ... how worthwhile ?

[Rashak Mani]

From my reading of the two feats, I see no text suggesting that the DC for detecting casting in wild shape increases. Given that the feat description for Natural Spell clearly indicates that the druid in animal form would have to behave in a way very uncharacteristic of the species they are impersonating, I don't see why spells cast in wild shape wouldn't be more detectable. Humans say things and gesture in a focused way all the time; a grizzly bear standing on his hind legs, roaring and waving his front claws in a weird pattern is far more atypical than a human casting a spell.

Its not a question of rules... but of perceived threats. A Grizzly standing up and roaring is a threat.... even if he is not a spellcasting Druid. A wierd acting squirrel is not a threat.

If a DM would be kind enough to play this scenario out with his group it will be obvious. Describe a bunch of gnolls attacking them... and a Flame Strike coming from nowhere... then just quickly mention a wierd squirrel up on the branches waving. I bet they won't shoot the squirrel first...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

If a DM would be kind enough to play this scenario out with his group it will be obvious. Describe a bunch of gnolls attacking them... and a Flame Strike coming from nowhere... then just quickly mention a wierd squirrel up on the branches waving. I bet they won't shoot the squirrel first...

You've got to be kidding me.

Have you read Wulf's Story Hour? His party of hard-bitten adventurers (in the closest thing to a "standard" campaign I've ever seen, going through published WotC modules one by one,) comes across a roomful of nasties, and a young 16-year-old girl.

Wulf gets the drop on everyone. Whom does he attack? Any of the various nasties, all obviously evil and quite definitely lethal? Heck no! He sends his sack of pennies straight into the side of the young girl's face. And he was right to do so, as it was a medusa.

If my DM tells our party that there are four hill giants attacking, we were just flamestriked, oh, and btw there's a small squirrel off to one side making strange chirps and waving its paws in front of it, that's one squirrel that's going to have seven arrows sticking out of it by the next round.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Come on Lord Pendragon !

They are using player knowledge if they pepper the squirrel ! (unless there is only one squirrel in a forest of course... )

As for the wulf and the girl... he learnt that one from the "Men in Black" film !!

 

[Stormrunner]

Yeah, unless you "just happen to mention" squirrels all the time, they'll be on it like white on rice.
After the party has met their first "Mr Natural" druid, throw in a rabid, or confused, or for that matter just trained, squirrel and watch the entire party leap on it and pound it to mush because "it's acting unnatural, it must be spellcasting".

Even better, have the spellcasting hag turn the scouting rogue into a squirrel, then watch as he tries to warn his companions with squeaks and sign language: "Hey guys, there's a - NO, WAIT! AIIIEEE!!!" (splat).

 

[fusangite]

Come on Lord Pendragon !
They are using player knowledge if they pepper the squirrel ! (unless there is only one squirrel in a forest of course... )

Knowledge of polymorphing, wild shapes, etc. is not "player knowledge" -- it is knowledge of the world. Being ignorant of your world's ecology, biology and physics is not role playing.

 

[Zappo]

Am I alone in thinking that SF (conj) isn't a wasted feat? Conjuration has lots of spells which require a save, and from what I've heard Complete Arcane introduces several more. It's the second school for direct damage, and it has several other interesting effects which allow a save too.

 

[drnuncheon]

Do you know why? Imagine the ridiculousness if you said it took even a dc 0 to spot a human being standing in the open with no cover. Half the time a peasant would be unable to see a man standing in a clear field 100 feet away.

I startle my wife with fair frequency at a distance of five feet. Haven't you ever accidentally ran into or almost ran into someone? And if you can miss a Spot/Listen check at a distance of 5 feet or less...

J

 

[drnuncheon]

Am I alone in thinking that SF (conj) isn't a wasted feat? Conjuration has lots of spells which require a save

Which ones, specifically, are on the Druid list?

J

 

[Staffan]

Am I alone in thinking that SF (conj) isn't a wasted feat? Conjuration has lots of spells which require a save, and from what I've heard Complete Arcane introduces several more. It's the second school for direct damage, and it has several other interesting effects which allow a save too.

For wizards, sure. For druids, there is a very limited list of Conjuration spells that use saves: Cure spells used on undead, Fire Seeds (Holly berry bomb version), Wall of Stone (when used to trap someone), and Storm of Vengeance are the only ones in the PHB, I think (though I may have missed one or two).

 

[Zappo]

Ah... I guess I was thinking about wizards. Yeah, for druids it isn't a good deal. Maybe some of the non-core books have a few more spells, though.