Avenger Multiclass Feats

[Garthanos]

Good point. I think the true brokenness comes into play when you can get more than one oath or transfer it, as indicated in those charop cheesefests. If the feat had additional wording prohibiting the transfer of the oath, or somesuch thing, It would only be a little worse. Maybe it should be paragon (though I realize that kind of breaks the mold for multiclass feats, right).

Jay

So I don't have to look over there again... could you explain transfering?
More than one...is just stepping all over the toes of the Avenger...

 

[Turtlejay]

2nd level Avenger Power allows you to refocus your mark, so multiclassers can take the power swap and that power.

Also, epic tier feat allows you to oath 2 enemies at once, effectively doubling your original feat. Between the two of those you can hit three enemies a fight. The avenger in our regular game should be so lucky.

Jay

 

[Elric]

Funny thing is, I thought Disciple of Divine Wrath was already too good compared to other feats. I mean, it gives you the equivalent of +5 to hit for two rounds of every combat, and you can concentrate your best encounter and daily powers into those two rounds.

And now Hero of Faith is even better!

A simple fix for both of the Avenger MC feats would be to add the line: "You can reroll only two attack rolls with the Oath of Enmity granted by this feat." This leaves them as strong MC feats, but keeps extreme abuse in check.

 

[Destil]

I brought this issue up because I am kind of considering it for my fighter. All of his dailies and encounters are multiple targets, I wanted him to project a very large threat on the battlfield. Downside is, in small or solo fights he is much reduced in power. This feat would mean that even though he would be down to Brash Strike in solo fights, he would hit often enough to contribute. I don't think I would try this feat with some of the cheap tricks pointed out in that charop thread posted here.

Jay

I don't think you'll ever convince me it's not broken in half. Even if not in heroic I doubt any fighter or ranger will have a hard time getting this in Paragon/Epic. Never mind pitfighter, an excellent paragon path that encourages a lot of Wis for a fighter who wants to hurt things.

Would the ranger multiclass feat be balanced if you had a higher prerequisite but kept the bonus dice all fight? They erated that one down pretty fast and it's not nearly as good when you're looking a high W powers. Even as a daily I'd be afraid of this one, though a little less willing to ban it outright.


Of course, I'm not running this game, and I'm pretty sure the DM dosn't have any problem with it...

 

[ChristopherA]

If those two rounds are concentrated dailies and encounters on 1 enemy ...and he dies.. even if you have hero of faith .. thats identical isnt it?

If you decide you can afford not to use quite so much resources because you have HOF and he manages to last longer and maybe do more damage.. then HOF well... is that a lot better? Its certainly funner because you still have some dailies for interesting use later.

The players know that hoarding resources has plusses and minusses, and will make the calculations for themselves. If they decide that throwing everything at the monster is not the best course of action, then HOF is indeed better.

Also, Hero of Faith is an encounter power, and you can't go crazy with dailies in every fight, even if you wanted to. And in any situation where you are going one-on-one with a monster of appropriate power level, it is going to take longer than two rounds to kill him with encounter and at-will powers, even with Oath of Emnity.

Finally, consider solo monsters. Oh boy is Hero of Faith good!



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[Garthanos]

Finally, consider solo monsters. Oh boy is Hero of Faith good!

Even elites can make it nice.. but yeah.

No argument there... I like the temptation to not use it in a pile on of dailies and encounters (but if I am using the other power.. well I feel I must do a supersized dog pile immediately nova ing with my action points etc.... )
making that other power not as fun...
HOF replaces the other power for me because the other encourages something I dont like that much.

 

[Skallgrim]

Yeah. It's frustrating, because I like a multiclass which allows you a choice of skills, and, background-wise, it makes sense for my Dwarf Barbarian, but as a single feat, Hero of the Faith is just really way too good.

I think it might be OK if the Oath lasted the entire encounter, but you could only use the double rolls on any one turn. That way, you could put the Oath on the target at any time, but use it when you needed it. The other Avenger multiclass (which is quite good anyway) does suffer from the fact that you might put your Oath on someone, and then find that they are adjacent to an ally for most or all of the time you have to use it.

 

[ChristopherA]

Yeah. It's frustrating, because I like a multiclass which allows you a choice of skills, and, background-wise, it makes sense for my Dwarf Barbarian, but as a single feat, Hero of the Faith is just really way too good.

I think it might be OK if the Oath lasted the entire encounter, but you could only use the double rolls on any one turn. That way, you could put the Oath on the target at any time, but use it when you needed it. The other Avenger multiclass (which is quite good anyway) does suffer from the fact that you might put your Oath on someone, and then find that they are adjacent to an ally for most or all of the time you have to use it.

For Discipline of Divine Wrath, it doesn't seem very likely that the Oath bonus would be unusable on the first round of use. Except for rare circumstances, you are going to use the Oath right before you attack, and you aren't going to activate the Oath if you know it will be useless. And that is the round you are likely to be using your best attack and action point, if you are so inclined.

It is only the following round where you really face the risk of being pinned and unable to activate the Oath bonus.


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[Skallgrim]

For Discipline of Divine Wrath, it doesn't seem very likely that the Oath bonus would be unusable on the first round of use. Except for rare circumstances, you are going to use the Oath right before you attack, and you aren't going to activate the Oath if you know it will be useless. And that is the round you are likely to be using your best attack and action point, if you are so inclined.

It is only the following round where you really face the risk of being pinned and unable to activate the Oath bonus.

That's true for the Discipline of Divine Wrath, so it works that it is largely a two round power.

I was just brainstorming about how you might make Hero of the Faith weaker than it currently is, but distinct from DDW. Only allowing the Oath to work for one turn makes it seem weaker than DDW, but the flexibility of being able to put the Oath on the target early, and use it later, seemed like a good counterbalance. That way, you could use the minor action whenever you had it free, leaving you a minor action on the turn you "redeemed" the oath (in case you needed to activate some nova power, or turn on some magic item).

It also allows you to "call out" your foe in the beginning of the combat, and 'denies' the DM the ability to plan for the oath's effect (for the monster affected). If you throw down DDW, then the monster (assuming it is intelligent) knows to use any powers it might have to get away, or to bring an ally adjacent. If you let HotF last for the entire encounter, even if it only works once, the monster can't be sure about a "safe time" to be adjacent to you.

It was just a suggestion for a rewrite, as I think Hero of the Faith is clearly an outlier on the "useful multiclass feat chart" right now. I wager it will be nerfed, but I really wish I knew how it was going to be nerfed, because I'm introducing a new character, and some version of this feat (that gave me at least one "double roll" and my choice of Avenger skills) would really fit the character. However, DDW just doesn't work, as this guy would have NO training in Religion.

 

[ChristopherA]

Skallgrim, I think your idea is a fine way for the power to work. I'm just commenting that it seems slightly weaker than DODW.

Your idea of calling out the monster for his inescapable doom sounds cool. But as a player, I'd be quite afraid to do this, for fear that the tactical situation would never give me a chance to fight that monster, or indeed that the (smart) monster would play keep-away or intercept me with his buddies, or that I would just decide later that I wanted to boost an attack against a different monster. The risk, with DODW, that the monster would use some reactive power to escape between my actions, or that I would be unable to afford a minor action, seems smaller by comparison.

This isn't really a problem for me, though, as your version of Hero is still plenty good for a multi-class feat, and a lot better balanced than the version in the book.



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