Background benefits?

[Cyronax]

Backgrounds are, IMHO, a bad example of everything needing to have a rule. I hate the idea of digging through them until I find the skill I want. Sometimes it works (I have an urban detective paladin who wanted streetwise), but a better rule would be:
Choose a skill that fits your background, subject to DM approval.

I promise I won't not buy books, WotC, if you just had the flavor text for backgrounds and one single, better, rule for them all.

But WotC did put a fairly standardized process in place for 'general' backgrounds -- the Phb2 Background Benefits section.

Nearly every single background benefit found from other sources -- including the Eberron and Forgotten Realms Players Guides and most especially the Scales of War background benefits -- are hands down more powerful.

Its an easy option to disallow all but the standard Phb2 model, if desired, but its annoying if you didn't identify the problem early on.

As fba827 said, I think the the 1) +2 to a class skill, 2) add a skill to class skill list, or 3) an extra language are nice extra ways of differentiating PCs.

Moreover, I also have the house rule for multiclassing which will give a character a +2 (instead of a redundant dud feat) if that character is already trained in the (single) class skill granted by the MC feat.

For instance, an Avenger taking Initiate of the Faith gets +5 from initial Religion skill training, plus +2 from the MC Cleric feat. That's on top of any background benefits or ability or racial modifiers.

IMC, most people do min-max like that I've noticed, but I don't mind. I require at least a page in narrative background before they begin.

C.I.D.

 

[Garthanos]

Nearly every single background benefit found from other sources -- including the Eberron and Forgotten Realms Players Guides and most especially the Scales of War background benefits -- are hands down more powerful.

And me I like the backgrounds with bite they are analogous to an extra feat which I have at various times considered granting independently. ;-)... If somebody designed a generic background I would see if their descriptions matched more than one and allow benefits accordingly. Giving is so much nicer than taking away dont you think.

 

[The Human Target]

Personally, I only allow backgrounds that follow the PHB2 guidelines. That is, an extra class skill, +2 to a skill, or a language.

-O

Yup.

And while powergaming has its place, always taking the same background is as blatant as it gets.

But you kind of have to blame WotC as well.

 

[Dredly]

So if we compare toughness to Birth/Bad Moon: (assuming one stat is maxed each time). I'm using a Dragon Born fighter and max out Str each time for stat increase:

Birth / Bad Moon:

Lvl 1: 33 Hp (18 str total)
Lvl 11: 96 Hp (21 str total)
Lvl 21: 159 Hp (23 Str total)
Lvl 30: 215 Hp (26 Str total)

Toughness

Lvl 1: 30 Hp
Lvl 11: 96 Hp
Lvl 21: 162 Hp
Lvl 30: 216 Hp

I also didn't max out Birth / Bad Moon, I started with 18 Modified str, instead of 20, if I would have maxed it out the end result would have had the benefit on the top... and you can use a feat on something more valuable... or double them up

 

[Cyronax]

So if we compare toughness to Birth/Bad Moon: (assuming one stat is maxed each time). I'm using a Dragon Born fighter and max out Str each time for stat increase:

Birth / Bad Moon:

Lvl 1: 33 Hp (18 str total)
Lvl 11: 96 Hp (21 str total)
Lvl 21: 159 Hp (23 Str total)
Lvl 30: 215 Hp (26 Str total)

Toughness

Lvl 1: 30 Hp
Lvl 11: 96 Hp
Lvl 21: 162 Hp
Lvl 30: 216 Hp

I also didn't max out Birth / Bad Moon, I started with 18 Modified str, instead of 20, if I would have maxed it out the end result would have had the benefit on the top... and you can use a feat on something more valuable... or double them up

I know this flies in the face of 4e 'Say Yes' philosophy, but why do I want something in my games (as a DM or a player) that I'd feel compelled to take or else be the party's weak link?

It strikes me as simply being similar to the Expertise feat tax (of which I know is a load/controversial statement).

My very few house rules in D&D are simply to ban this sort of cheese. But to each his own.

I 'Say Yes' in many other ways in my campaigns.

 

[Dredly]

I know this flies in the face of 4e 'Say Yes' philosophy, but why do I want something in my games (as a DM or a player) that I'd feel compelled to take or else be the party's weak link?

It strikes me as simply being similar to the Expertise feat tax (of which I know is a load/controversial statement).

My very few house rules in D&D are simply to ban this sort of cheese. But to each his own.

I 'Say Yes' in many other ways in my campaigns.

Yeah I won't be allowing it in future campaigns, I will also be restricting all the player races to exclude "ebberon" and "Dungeon Magazine" races I think.

 

[Garthanos]

I know this flies in the face of 4e 'Say Yes' philosophy, but why do I want something in my games (as a DM or a player) that I'd feel compelled to take or else be the party's weak link?

yes its about equivalent of the toughness feat and serves the same purpose...not everybody I play with takes toughness...( I sometimes skin toughness as being very lucky... since hit points being heroic luck as much as anything.)

Healing surges go down if you dump stat the con... so your hitpoints may be up.... but.

And those particular backgrounds have a rather focused purpose (making them stand out)... but most of these feat class backgrounds are full on as useful as a feat but cast a wider spread...

An example that is definitely very useful doing something nothing else does.. is one that allows you to take more than one multiclass feat.(and gives an extra language to boot).

Most are just more diverse in there fire pattern, for instance providing an extra language AND another skill on your list AND a +2 on that skill ... all three. Or adding two skills to your list with +1 each.

In fact some others feel a much better choice if you already have a reason to have a high con or dont want to sacrefice your healing surges. Does con have too few uses? ... maybe it has gone from uber stat to meh.

 

[Dredly]

Most of the players in my party are pretty customized for damage, none of them have a high con other then one warrior so they all have like 7-8 healing surges. So far none of them have had to use all of their surges.

 

[Cyronax]

yes its about equivalent of the toughness feat and serves the same purpose...not everybody I play with takes toughness...( I sometimes skin toughness as being very lucky... since hit points being heroic luck as much as anything.)

Healing surges go down if you dump stat the con... so your hitpoints may be up.... but.

And those particular backgrounds have a rather focused purpose (making them stand out)... but most of these feat class backgrounds are full on as useful as a feat but cast a wider spread...

An example that is definitely very useful doing something nothing else does.. is one that allows you to take more than one multiclass feat.(and gives an extra language to boot).

Most are just more diverse in there fire pattern, for instance providing an extra language AND another skill on your list AND a +2 on that skill ... all three. Or adding two skills to your list with +1 each.

In fact some others feel a much better choice if you already have a reason to have a high con or dont want to sacrefice your healing surges. Does con have too few uses? ... maybe it has gone from uber stat to meh.

I understand where you're coming from I think. I just see many of the non-Phb2 style background benefits as being taken for the sake of an uber benefit -- and not to enhance or model a key component of a character's background.

Toughness to me is an expenditure on the player's part to represent that quality in their character.

If I wanted to bump everyone up or give that option (balanced against something similar for ranged or casters), I'd probably give Toughness away for free instead of tying it to a mechanic that has nothing to do with DM gifting.

 

[DracoSuave]

So if we compare toughness to Birth/Bad Moon: (assuming one stat is maxed each time). I'm using a Dragon Born fighter and max out Str each time for stat increase:

Birth / Bad Moon:

Lvl 1: 33 Hp (18 str total)
Lvl 11: 96 Hp (21 str total)
Lvl 21: 159 Hp (23 Str total)
Lvl 30: 215 Hp (26 Str total)

Toughness

Lvl 1: 30 Hp
Lvl 11: 96 Hp
Lvl 21: 162 Hp
Lvl 30: 216 Hp

I also didn't max out Birth / Bad Moon, I started with 18 Modified str, instead of 20, if I would have maxed it out the end result would have had the benefit on the top... and you can use a feat on something more valuable... or double them up

That's a comparison of a character who is primed to use something vs a character who is not primed to use something.

A fairer comparison would be someone who gets the maximum benefit out of one vs. gets the maximum benefit out of the other.

Charisma Warlock with this, vs. Constitution Warlock. Both with 20s in their primary attribute.

Charisma with the background:

32 | level 1
85 | level 11
138 | level 21
185 | level 30

Constitution with the feat:

38 | level 1
95 | level 11
153 | level 21
200 | level 30.

The difference is non-trivial. The background -only- allows you to push to a limit, toughness allows you to -exceed- that limit.

For something to be 'broken' it must actually break some sort of limit. It only allows you a bit more flexibility in character design (not a bad thing)