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[BADD] A clinic for DMing Dragons- long
- Thread starter Gargoyle
- Start date
*Sigh*
and i quote:
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil and Law domains as arcane spells."-MM p65, Blue Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells."-MM p68, Red Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos and Knowledge domains as arcane spells."-MM p70, Brass Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Animal, Law, and Water domains as arcane spells."-MM p72, Bronze Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains as arcane spells."-MM p73, Copper Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Law, Luck, and Good domains as arcane spells."-MM p74, Gold Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells."-MM p76, Silver Dragon Entry
Look at the wording, it says "...cleric spells and those from the..." This means that they can chose their spells known as a sorcerer from not only arcane spell lists, but also from the base cleric spell list, and from the listed clerical domains.
Admittedly, not every dragon can cast clerical spells, but remembering to count them in should make your dragons less disposable.
(Or you could just house rule the other ones to have a lesser ability to cast clerical spells; maybe only a few domains. However, this really isn't necessary in my opinion)
If this isn't enough, i asked this on the old boards and somebody replied with a sage ruling backing up what i said.
and i quote:
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Evil and Law domains as arcane spells."-MM p65, Blue Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells."-MM p68, Red Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos and Knowledge domains as arcane spells."-MM p70, Brass Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Animal, Law, and Water domains as arcane spells."-MM p72, Bronze Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains as arcane spells."-MM p73, Copper Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Law, Luck, and Good domains as arcane spells."-MM p74, Gold Dragon Entry
"*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Air, Good, Law, and Sun domains as arcane spells."-MM p76, Silver Dragon Entry
Look at the wording, it says "...cleric spells and those from the..." This means that they can chose their spells known as a sorcerer from not only arcane spell lists, but also from the base cleric spell list, and from the listed clerical domains.
Admittedly, not every dragon can cast clerical spells, but remembering to count them in should make your dragons less disposable.
(Or you could just house rule the other ones to have a lesser ability to cast clerical spells; maybe only a few domains. However, this really isn't necessary in my opinion)
If this isn't enough, i asked this on the old boards and somebody replied with a sage ruling backing up what i said.
James McMurray
First Post
Carnifex: I agree fully with point one from your first post. I have only had one dragon ever in my campaign not use Mage Armor, it amkes an already hard to hit beast even harder. The bost spells are great too. One other thing to think about, if you feel the dragon needs an attack spell, is something from an element that is not what the dragon's breath is. That way he can still hurt people with protection spells up.
Post 1, Point 2. . . I'm not sure that dragons (by the rules as written) can actually make items. Since they don't advance by character class, do they ever get experience points to spend? sure it could go either way, but I do think we should ensure that all tactics discussed go by the rules. That means no (as someone on another thread posted) contingencied heal spells. That is unless of course the dragon is also a high level cleric himself somehow.
P1, 3 - Crushing is great. It's even nicer if you're big enough o get more than one person under you and then roll around on them.
P1, 4 - Add fly-by attack and you can grab them in your normal round, fly away, then as your haste action breathe and drop. It only takes one round, and with wingover you can even fly away straight up, for maximum dropping potential.
Post 2, point 3 - Improved Disarm is probably better, as Sunder relies on having DR at least as high as the weapon's plus. If you use disarm, you can even keep the weapon afterwards. Don't forget that, if you feel capable of surviving the AoO, you can disarm someone without Improevd Disarm.
Post 3, point 4: Why not just make a pool of acid and have a thin coating of rock that can be broken easily with a claw?
post 4, point 1: the shell's range is personal only, so he'd have to cast it ib himself.
Psion: As a correllary to point 2, I'd suggest having a lair that is tall enough in most areas to allow flight. At the very least, those dragons with hover should be able to do so in their lair.
#3: If however, you see that the party has taken no damage from your first blast, give it up immediately unless you can arrange several strafing runs. Odds are they've got resist elements up and can absorb a ton of damage before taking any.
#4: And flee when caught with your scales down.
#5: Where's that generator at?
as for the dragon issue, out of my last year and a half of dragon magazines, its the only one I can't find anymore!
Bozo: That sounds like a dragon whose CR is much higher than the party's level. I think the discussion should be kept to those dragons who will be fighting the party, as anyone (even me in my game) can just bring out a dragon taht the party can't hope to beat at their level.
jasper, I hope the dragon's in human form somehow when he talks to the smith, its hard to make weapons when you're running for your life.
victim: Just be sure the dragon can easily tell who the cleruc is. For example, my party is all LG followers of heironious and all could be mistaken for clerics until that first clerical spell goes off.
rav: that's what I thought too, but re-reading it, most ofthem say cleric spells AND spells from some domains. seeems kinda odd to me, since usually domain spells will be available to clerics or sorcerors, thus making access to them redundant.
Post 1, Point 2. . . I'm not sure that dragons (by the rules as written) can actually make items. Since they don't advance by character class, do they ever get experience points to spend? sure it could go either way, but I do think we should ensure that all tactics discussed go by the rules. That means no (as someone on another thread posted) contingencied heal spells. That is unless of course the dragon is also a high level cleric himself somehow.
P1, 3 - Crushing is great. It's even nicer if you're big enough o get more than one person under you and then roll around on them.
P1, 4 - Add fly-by attack and you can grab them in your normal round, fly away, then as your haste action breathe and drop. It only takes one round, and with wingover you can even fly away straight up, for maximum dropping potential.
Post 2, point 3 - Improved Disarm is probably better, as Sunder relies on having DR at least as high as the weapon's plus. If you use disarm, you can even keep the weapon afterwards. Don't forget that, if you feel capable of surviving the AoO, you can disarm someone without Improevd Disarm.
Post 3, point 4: Why not just make a pool of acid and have a thin coating of rock that can be broken easily with a claw?
post 4, point 1: the shell's range is personal only, so he'd have to cast it ib himself.
Psion: As a correllary to point 2, I'd suggest having a lair that is tall enough in most areas to allow flight. At the very least, those dragons with hover should be able to do so in their lair.
#3: If however, you see that the party has taken no damage from your first blast, give it up immediately unless you can arrange several strafing runs. Odds are they've got resist elements up and can absorb a ton of damage before taking any.
#4: And flee when caught with your scales down.
#5: Where's that generator at?
as for the dragon issue, out of my last year and a half of dragon magazines, its the only one I can't find anymore!
Bozo: That sounds like a dragon whose CR is much higher than the party's level. I think the discussion should be kept to those dragons who will be fighting the party, as anyone (even me in my game) can just bring out a dragon taht the party can't hope to beat at their level.
jasper, I hope the dragon's in human form somehow when he talks to the smith, its hard to make weapons when you're running for your life.
victim: Just be sure the dragon can easily tell who the cleruc is. For example, my party is all LG followers of heironious and all could be mistaken for clerics until that first clerical spell goes off.
rav: that's what I thought too, but re-reading it, most ofthem say cleric spells AND spells from some domains. seeems kinda odd to me, since usually domain spells will be available to clerics or sorcerors, thus making access to them redundant.
Wolfspider
Explorer
McMurray! Glad to see you here....
I hereby proclaim you the official Devil's Advocate of B.A.D.D. Your duties include making sure that we don't go TOO far and to carefully question our tactics and devous plans with the objectivity that the more fervent members migh lack.
I hereby proclaim you the official Devil's Advocate of B.A.D.D. Your duties include making sure that we don't go TOO far and to carefully question our tactics and devous plans with the objectivity that the more fervent members migh lack.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
First of all, I'm a fan of playing dragons realistically - the younger and weaker dragons aren't usually intelligent, and shouldn't be treated as such. Other than that...
* Know your dragon. It sounds simple, but people tend to forget their capabilities. I, of course, use my dragon generator for that.
* Flight. Dragons need lairs, but they should either be immense enought that the dragon can fly, or have an easy escape to the skies.
* Keep the players guessing. An excellent example follows:
Young adult white dragon (CR 7)
DR 5/+1, SR 16
Fiendish juvenile white dragon (CR 7)
DR 10/+3, SR 24, fire resistance 20, smite good for 12 points of extra damage
While the slightly older dragon has more hit points and better attacks, the fiendish dragon has a killer ability: fire resistance. That's right: the 8th-level wizard's fireball is down to an average of 16.2 points on a failed save and less than .1 points on a successful save. Since a non-buffed dragon of this type has a Reflex save of +8, that's not at all bad... 16 points of damage is less than a sixth of the dragons hit points.
For all evil DMs and BADD members, I hope to add checkboxes for the "fiendish" template to my dragon generator in the next month. Enjoy.
* Know your dragon. It sounds simple, but people tend to forget their capabilities. I, of course, use my dragon generator for that.
* Flight. Dragons need lairs, but they should either be immense enought that the dragon can fly, or have an easy escape to the skies.
* Keep the players guessing. An excellent example follows:
Young adult white dragon (CR 7)
DR 5/+1, SR 16
Fiendish juvenile white dragon (CR 7)
DR 10/+3, SR 24, fire resistance 20, smite good for 12 points of extra damage
While the slightly older dragon has more hit points and better attacks, the fiendish dragon has a killer ability: fire resistance. That's right: the 8th-level wizard's fireball is down to an average of 16.2 points on a failed save and less than .1 points on a successful save. Since a non-buffed dragon of this type has a Reflex save of +8, that's not at all bad... 16 points of damage is less than a sixth of the dragons hit points.
For all evil DMs and BADD members, I hope to add checkboxes for the "fiendish" template to my dragon generator in the next month. Enjoy.
Gargoyle
Adventurer
Sollir Furryfoot
Explorer
A good tactic with Illusory Walls is to use them in a cave.
Location: Mountain or Large Cave.
Setup: The dragon carves in a tunnel, and every few sides it will carve to the side in a long path, here they will cast the first set of illusory walls. Furthermore, they can dig underneath the area, forming pathways inbetween these areas. Behind the illusory walls they dig in the ground to connect the pathways and cast another illusory wall on the hole in the ground. (Be sure to make the hole about 100 ft. deep or so).
(A bit confusing, I know, basically make it look like a straight tunnel but have illusory walls every so often on the sides and ceilings that are connected to each other underneath the main ground.)
The Tactic: The dragon can use flyby attack and its breath weapon to attack through a wall. If the PC disbelieves the first wall, all they see is a empty room-unless they walk further and fall in the 100 ft. hole for 10d6 damage with basically no escape as its dark and hard to fly there as well. The dragon, on the otherhand, runs around the underground passages to hit them from the ceiling, the sides, and everywhere so the PCs have very little chance to interact with it if at all.
Location: Mountain or Large Cave.
Setup: The dragon carves in a tunnel, and every few sides it will carve to the side in a long path, here they will cast the first set of illusory walls. Furthermore, they can dig underneath the area, forming pathways inbetween these areas. Behind the illusory walls they dig in the ground to connect the pathways and cast another illusory wall on the hole in the ground. (Be sure to make the hole about 100 ft. deep or so).
(A bit confusing, I know, basically make it look like a straight tunnel but have illusory walls every so often on the sides and ceilings that are connected to each other underneath the main ground.)
The Tactic: The dragon can use flyby attack and its breath weapon to attack through a wall. If the PC disbelieves the first wall, all they see is a empty room-unless they walk further and fall in the 100 ft. hole for 10d6 damage with basically no escape as its dark and hard to fly there as well. The dragon, on the otherhand, runs around the underground passages to hit them from the ceiling, the sides, and everywhere so the PCs have very little chance to interact with it if at all.
James McMurray
First Post
Wolfspider:
That's a job I could enjoy. And if I learn a few nice tactics along the way, so be it.
CRGreathouse and Gargoyle: Thatnks for the generator and the link! I can see I'll be using those quite a bit! Maybe not the dragon one so much, but certainly the others.
That's a job I could enjoy. And if I learn a few nice tactics along the way, so be it.
CRGreathouse and Gargoyle: Thatnks for the generator and the link! I can see I'll be using those quite a bit! Maybe not the dragon one so much, but certainly the others.
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