Badger Kung Fu -- need rules help! Thx.

[Kevman]

I've got a player who is working on a Monk1/Druid x build. He wants to use Wildshape to turn into a Dire Badger, then use Flurry of Blows to perform multiple unarmed strikes per round _as the Badger._

3.5 rules.

My ruling is that Badgers can't use unarmed strikes. A badger doesn't have the same physiology as a human so all those years of martial arts training still won't allow you to move the arms and legs of a badger in the ways you need to deal unarmed strike damage.

Can anyone cite rules that support my ruling? (source and pg. #)

I've read the 3.5 FAQ that says animals can't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, and I also know that natural weapon are no good for Flurry of Blows (only unarmed strikes or monk weapons allowed). My player argues that the badger-monk can do unarmed strikes like his monk in human form since the character has the IUS feat. What gives?

Am I wrong by the RAW, despite the hilarity of the concept? So if the Monk/Druid turns into a fish, that fish can do unarmed strikes, too?

Thanks in advance for any help!
Kev

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

I believe this is how it works.

As a Badger, he gets up to 3 attacks Bite, Claw, Claw.

I think he CAN use Flurry of Blows to get an additonal attack, but all attacks have the - 2 penalty. So he could go Bite, Bite, Claw, Claw; of Bite, Claw, Claw, Claw.

I'm not sure wether he gets his unarmed stike damage die, or has to stick with the badgers damage die.

I think this was discussed in a recent Sage Advice for Dragon Magazine. Theere is a brief blurb in Savage Species that seems to indicates a creature can use his monk abilites with his unarmed strikes.

I think the RAW supports your player. But others, should be able to give you a better answer.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

if you had an awakened badger that took monk levels, would it be allowed to flurry? If he's willing to take a level away from his main progression, I don't see the problem with giving him its benefits. But if it seems too overwhellming, introduce a feat ala the astetic(sp) X feats in Complete adventurer to multiclass monk and druid and use monk abilities while wildshaped.

 

[Shadowdweller]

My ruling is that Badgers can't use unarmed strikes. A badger doesn't have the same physiology as a human so all those years of martial arts training still won't allow you to move the arms and legs of a badger in the ways you need to deal unarmed strike damage.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable ruling to me. I've yet to see anything in the rules regarding which races/forms are capable or incapable of unarmed strikes. Or the extent to which a druid becomes familiar with wildshaped forms. HOWEVER, the FAQ does provide examples of non-standard races (i.e. a centaur) getting unarmed strikes.

I've read the 3.5 FAQ that says animals can't get iterative attacks with natural weapons, and I also know that natural weapon are no good for Flurry of Blows (only unarmed strikes or monk weapons allowed). My player argues that the badger-monk can do unarmed strikes like his monk in human form since the character has the IUS feat. What gives?

According to the Sage, both natural weapons and unarmed strikes can be made in the same attack sequence. It's just that natural weapons can't be used as part of the flurry itself. When doing so, all natural weapons are treated as secondary (subject to the -5 penalty and gets only half his strength bonus to damage)

So, *IF* you allowed the badger to make unarmed strikes, he would get:
Unarmed strike at -2 (due to flurry), unarmed strike at -2, bite at -7 (secondary natural attack and flurry), claw at -7, claw at -7

(Assuming the character gets only one iterative attack). While this is a lot of attacks, -7 is a significant penalty!

 

[blargney the second]

Flurry doesn't work with any natural weapons. However, iterative BAB works fine, and all natural weapons are secondary attacks.

You end up with a Monk 1/Druid 8 wildshaped into a Tiger:
Flurry = +5/+5/+0 Large unarmed damage (3 times).
Without Flurry = +6/+1/+1/+1/+1 L unarmed (2 times)/Claw (2 times)/Bite.

-blarg

EDIT: I used the tiger as an example because there's a GREAT Weretiger mini in the Angelfire set that says "Kung Fu Tiger" to me.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Every creature - regardless of physiology - can make an unarmed strike. It's just that most will never need or want to.

Badgers have claws and bites - which are better than a badger's unarmed strike (which does less damage and provokes an AoO when used).

He cannot mix flurry and non-monk weapons (and natural weapons are not monk weapons). Therefore, he cannot flurry and use his claw, claw, bite routine at the same time.

He could, however, make his normal unarmed attacks, and then use his claw, claw, bite routine as secondary natural weapons. They take a -5 penalty to his best attack roll, and only apply .5 of his Strength bonus to damage.

 

[Warehouse23]

Given the context, maybe my malapropism is excusable. Did anyone else read this as "Furry" of blows?

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Every creature - regardless of physiology - can make an unarmed strike. It's just that most will never need or want to.

Badgers have claws and bites - which are better than a badger's unarmed strike (which does less damage and provokes an AoO when used).

He cannot mix flurry and non-monk weapons (and natural weapons are not monk weapons). Therefore, he cannot flurry and use his claw, claw, bite routine at the same time.

He could, however, make his normal unarmed attacks, and then use his claw, claw, bite routine as secondary natural weapons. They take a -5 penalty to his best attack roll, and only apply .5 of his Strength bonus to damage.

But....

Monks can take Improved Natural Attack (as recently answered, then discussed on a looong thread here). This Feat has a prereq of Natural Weapons. If a monks Unarmed Strike is defined as a Natural Weapon, then should a Badger's Natural Weapon not count as an Unarmed Strike.

(As mentioned in the Monk's description, their entire body is a weapon; hands, feet, knees, head, elbow, etc).

How I feel about it is (regardless of 'official' clarification).

An Natural Weapon simply allows you to make an Unarmed Stike that deals Lethal Damage with an Unarmed Strike and not provoke an AoO. Thus the Badger-Monk could use his Monk Abilities, Flurry, Quivering Palm, Stunning Attack, etc with his Natural Weapons. Damage would not stack. You use whichever die type is higher the monk's or the badgers.

You would get your Monk Attacks, then your Secondary Attacks at -5 (or -2 with multiattack). Any penalties apply to all your attacks. Thus a 5th level Awakened Badger Monk would have a Full Attack of Primary+3/Primary+3/Secondary+1, with Multiattack (Claw+3/Claw+3/Bite+1). At 8th level this would become Claw+6/Claw+6/iterative Claw+1/Bite+4. He could Flurry and get Claw+5/Claw+5/iterative Claw+0/Bite+3 (as the penalty decrease by 1 at 8th level.

I'm fine with this. That's a lot of effort to get a few extra swings in. It benefits me (the DM) more than it does him the player. He's the only one this works for in the party, he's also got to blow a shapechage to do it. Yet, how many of MY monsters have Natural Weapons?

Whats good for the Goose is Good for the Gander.

I'd allow him, but warn him it works both ways. Umber Hulk know Kung FU!

 

[andargor]

Given the context, maybe my malapropism is excusable. Did anyone else read this as "Furry" of blows?

Heheh. Good one.

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a monks Unarmed Strike is defined as a Natural Weapon, then should a Badger's Natural Weapon not count as an Unarmed Strike.

No.

Monks can flurry with a quarterstaff. A quarterstaff is defined as a Simple Weapon. Should all Simple Weapons not count as quarterstaffs? Can a monk flurry with a heavy mace?

-Hyp.