Bahamut and Tiamat

[LordGraz'zt]

As I mentioned in a previous thread I am starting a Paragon level campaign soon which borrows heavily from Chris Perkins "Iomandra" setting.

While some of the citizens may worship other gods the two main gods in the setting are Bahamut and Tiamat.

My main goal is not to paint Bahamut as the "good" god and Tiamat as "evil" as I really want to avoid that sort of black and white distinction - I want the morality of the campaign to be a lot more ambiguous - where most decisions are firmly in the grey area.

As the campaign world is ruled by dragon overlords who worship both gods (though individuals may lean further towards one or the other) I want the gods to embody different qualities that dragons respect.

For each of the traits that one god represents I want the other to represent the opposite (or near opposite),

So for example lets say one of the traits Bahamut represents is Justice, then Tiamat will represent Trickery.

If Justice is applied too hard it can definitely lead to some evil behaviour, just like how Trickery can be used for good purposes.

I hope this sort of explains the feel I am going for - I want the gods to represent certain domains or traits - but the traits themselves can be used for good or evil means - and each of the traits is something that dragons would respect and utilise in their lives.

At the moment I currently have:

Bahamut - Nobility, Protection, Generosity, Justice
Tiamat - Tyranny, Destruction, Greed, Trickery

Greed may sound like a weird one - but without a certain amount of envy and desire, there would be no impetus for the dragons to improve and conquer islands and build their hoards.

Any ideas on traits or to flesh out the idea I have here would be much appreciated - feel free to throw anything out there - I am just brainstorming at the moment.

 

[Will Doyle]

This sounds like a neat setting. I like the idea of a world where people are ruled by dragons.

Have you thought much about how that works? Perhaps the peoples of the world have to pay taxes to their local dragon's hoard? Or maybe everybody has to serve a "national service" of a year as their dragon's thrall. Shovelling dragon dung in its lair, standing around as human chesspieces, polishing its scales...

Anyway, regarding the gods - I'd say that Tiamat still sounds pretty nasty there. If you're looking for shades of grey, I'd tone down her portfolio a bit, for example:

Replace Tyranny with Power
Replace Destruction with Expediency
Replace Greed with Ambition
Replace Trickery with Cunning

Some of those are just semantic changes, but I think she sounds lot less cruel now.

 

[Neubert]

I agree with Will Doyle in regards to Tiamat sounding 'nasty' and was going to mention ambition too. I am not certain if it fits what you are going for, but "Active" (Tiamat) and "reactive/passive" (Bahamut) could be used to somewhat balance their negative and positive sounding words.

 

[LordGraz'zt]

This sounds like a neat setting. I like the idea of a world where people are ruled by dragons.

Have you thought much about how that works? Perhaps the peoples of the world have to pay taxes to their local dragon's hoard? Or maybe everybody has to serve a "national service" of a year as their dragon's thrall. Shovelling dragon dung in its lair, standing around as human chesspieces, polishing its scales...

Anyway, regarding the gods - I'd say that Tiamat still sounds pretty nasty there. If you're looking for shades of grey, I'd tone down her portfolio a bit, for example:

Replace Tyranny with Power
Replace Destruction with Expediency
Replace Greed with Ambition
Replace Trickery with Cunning

Some of those are just semantic changes, but I think she sounds lot less cruel now.

Thanks for the feedback much appreciated.

How it works is as you guessed the peoples taxes are paid to their dragon overlord - the dragonborn that serve the dragons run most of the government - each town has its own Magistrate (who is normally a dragonborn but not always) who is in charge of keeping the peace and ensuring the dragon gets his proper share.

 

[LordGraz'zt]

Thankyou once again for the feedback - please be brutal with the below.

The idea of the below is just to give a general feel for the two main gods of the setting - does the below achieve that?

My players are not the types that require a great deal of information and backstory (ie. I do not need to go into great lengths about how the religion interacts with the world and how the hierarchy of the churches are established) - all I want to achieve with the below is to give them a general vibe on what each of the gods represent and their feel.

Most citizens of the campaign setting worship each god equally as they both represent (or are suppose to represent) traits that all people can use and that most people (especially dragons) value.

They each have their own clerics and paladins and while there are rivalries between the two religions they are not diametrically opposed as they are in most settings.


Bahamut and Tiamat
In the early days of creation when the gods fought the primordials for ownership of the multiverse it is said that that the great primordial Erek-Hus, King of Terror faced Io, God of Dragons on a blasted continent half shattered from a century of conflict. The two met in ferocious battle that lasted 22 days and nights until Erek-Hus neared destruction. Filled with pride at bringing an end to the powerful primordial and gripped by greed at claiming his power for his own the Dragon God arrogantly played with his foe, taunting him with his folly at facing the most powerful deity ever known in single combat.

At this a vicious smile spread across the terrifying visage of the King of Terror as his children Ogremoch the Stone Tyrant and Imix the Eternal Flame burst forth from the broken crust of the forgotten world and launched an attack with ferocious abandon. While children were no match for the God of Dragons they provided their father with the opening he needed. As Io broughr draconic fury with claw and breath upon the two lesser primordials Erek-Hus readied himself. With his mountain sized adamantine great axe Shax, he split Io from head to tail, neatly cleaving the deity into two pieces. Erek-Hus and his children laughed, his voice jubilant thunder that resounded across the scarred face of the world. Before his laugh died away, the divine power released from Io formed two great dragons. Bahamut, a massive, long and sinuous dragon with platinum scales and Tiamat, a smaller dark dragon with five heads each screaming vengeance.

The children of Io turned upon the children of Erek-Hus laying Ogremoch and Imix low before turning their draconic might upon the slayer of their father. Before the blood red sun set that day the two godlings roared to the multiverse over the destroyed and mutilated bodies of the three primordials declaring their arrival and the coming of a new age of dragons.

Bahamut - The Platinum Dragon
Traits: Majesty, Honor, Justice, Wisdom, Pride

The followers of Bahamut belive in the majesty of leadership, bound by honor they serve the dragonlords in ensuring justice is served throughout Arkhosia. Wisdom is prized over intelligence and while pride is their wellspring of strength it is also their weakness as pride can easily lead to arrogance and their undoing.

Tiamat - The Dragon Queen
Traits: Dominion, Ambition, Cunning, Intelligence, Desire

The followers of Tiamat believe in the dominion over others, fueled by ambition they serve their dragonlords with cunning ensuring every plan to power realised. Intelligence is prized over wisdom and while desire is their driving force it is also their weakness as desire can easily lead to greed and their undoing.

 

[Will Doyle]

Not much to be brutal with here. I like what you've done with the opposing values now - Tiamat sounds far less evil. I particularly like the Wisdom vs Intelligence split. Bahamut sounds sort of "don't think - feel", whereas Tiamat is "Knowledge is Power".

Your origin story is basically the same as the official lore, right? (I don't have my books with me here) Speaking of lore, if this actually is Arkhosia, is Bael Turath out there somewhere? Or is the dragonborn/tiefling enmity pretty much the same?

I think there are some adventure possibilities based around the fact that these cults aren't actively opposed, and both come from the same wellspring. Maybe they have a shared holy date, when both churches come together in prayer to commemorate the death of Io? If I was running a campaign here, I'd definitely open with something going wrong during one of these celebrations - and sowing the seeds of opposition between the faiths

 

[LordGraz'zt]

Not much to be brutal with here. I like what you've done with the opposing values now - Tiamat sounds far less evil. I particularly like the Wisdom vs Intelligence split. Bahamut sounds sort of "don't think - feel", whereas Tiamat is "Knowledge is Power".

Your origin story is basically the same as the official lore, right? (I don't have my books with me here) Speaking of lore, if this actually is Arkhosia, is Bael Turath out there somewhere? Or is the dragonborn/tiefling enmity pretty much the same?

I think there are some adventure possibilities based around the fact that these cults aren't actively opposed, and both come from the same wellspring. Maybe they have a shared holy date, when both churches come together in prayer to commemorate the death of Io? If I was running a campaign here, I'd definitely open with something going wrong during one of these celebrations - and sowing the seeds of opposition between the faiths

Origin is pretty close to lore with just some slight adjustments to create possible plot hooks for the future.

Its not quite 'Arkhosia' as it is in the books, Arkhosia is the name I have used for the known world which is an island chain each ruled by an individual dragonlord. The two islands which are an exception to this - the recently overthrown island now known as the Free Kingdom of Nerath and Bael Turath - an island for as long as known memory has been owned by tieflings and their demonic patrons.

I was orginally going to do a lot with the two churches but as no PC's have divine classes I will just leave it as background - but I just wanted some sort of framework for them when the inevitable PC's death occur and players want to run a Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard of Bahamut/Tiamat.

One of the background plots will be the two churches organising themselves into a more structured entity with even the possibility of a unified Kingpriest of Io and all the political maneuvering that will happen between the two churches for which religion the Kingpriest will come from.

 

[d2OKC]

I don't have any qualms with it, just a few comments.

I love the relationship between Tiamat and Bahamut you've cooked up. It's much more realistic feeling to me, because in our world three of the major religions (Islam, Judaism, and Christianity) all had a related origin, so there's kind of a connect there that makes a lot of sense. Have you considered maybe bringing in a third branch? Like Christianity split from Judaism, maybe some new branch of Bahamut/Tiamat worshippers have shown up and are really throwing a kink into things? You mentioned there are no divine characters, so maybe it's a storyline for a different campaign.

What would be the main conflict? As it sounds, there's not really one big group for them to fight against. Maybe I'm just missing something?

Do you have any room left at your table?

 

[LordGraz'zt]

Thanks for the input - there is spot for one or two more players - however Australia may be a bit of a jouney for you to make it each week!

I am tempted to move the game to OKC though as I am a massive Thunder fan haha.

There are other gods in the setting (Moradin for the Dwarves, Corellion for the Fey etc) but public worship of them is illegal - as is any literature or items that shows dragons in a negative light or can be used against them. Dragonbane weapons are punishable by death for example - which will create some great situations for the players if they do uncover similar items.

In terms of conflict between the churches its predominately financial and political. Financial in terms of the churches run the rudimentary banking system as well as mint the coinage (there is no official uniting body between all the individual islands - the churches are as close as it gets) and political in the form of endearing the support of invidual dragon overlords to their cause.

The majority of dragons play little part in the machinations of the churches - most of the power plays between churches involve the dragonborn governments of each major city.

 

[d2OKC]

I am tempted to move the game to OKC though as I am a massive Thunder fan.

You just made yourself a new best friend. If you ever make it my way you've got a seat at the gaming table and a cold one at the next Thunder game!


That all sounds good to me. I'd play in it right now.