D&D 5E Balance at high levels - and a possible house rule

Mercurius

Legend
One of the ongoing concerns in every edition is the balance of class power, especially at higher levels. There is no way around the fact that a 20th level wizard is simply more powerful than a 20th level fighter.

5E ameliorates this somewhat. But with the “game-changing” 9th level spells, it seems inevitable that there will be a gap, at least not without messing with spell casting tropes. And of course, the gap is only widest at 20th...it starts well before then.

But is this really a problem? It certainly jives conceptually, but also with fantasy tradition. Of course D&D assumes some degree of balance, and the designers want players to feel happy about playing characters that they want to play, not just for munchkinism.

There is some balance in that non-spellcasters tend to be more powerful—or at least less vulnerable—at lower levels. But somewhere between 5th and 15th level, the tables are turned and martial players watch wistfully as wizards stop time and level armies with meteor swarms.

But we WANT to be able to do that. We want super powerful wizards capable of facing ancient dragons or destroying armies. But we also want our martial characters to remain relevant—not just in terms of role-play, but combat.

So I have one idea. I haven’t really thought it out, so don’t know how well it would actually play at the table, which is partially why I’m bringing it to the collective wisdom of ENWorld. It is this: what if spellcasters were unable to use magic items? The basic setting-specific rationale would be that there is a kind of interference or “shorting out.” A spellcaster’s magic comes from within and thus could not augment their own magic with s external items.

So my question: how would that impact balance and game play? Is it over-compensating too much?

An alternate would be that some magic items would still work, but they are rare and there is a cost of some kind. Or maybe a spell-caster could use magic items, but not stacking in any way with their own magic.

Again, I haven’t thought this through in a meaningful way, but wanted to explore the idea a bit.
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I'll be honest, I've played a fair amount of Tier 3 at this point (not Tier 4, where I do think some 9th level spells have balance issues), and casters are good, but they aren't really all that. Casters have a drastically limited pool of high level spells to cast, and concentration is still absolutely a factor.

Plus, my personal feeling is that the game should be focused MORE on acquisition and LESS on innate character growth, so taking away magic items from half the classes is pretty much the opposite of my taste. That is completely personal preference, of course.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
One of the ongoing concerns in every edition is the balance of class power, especially at higher levels. There is no way around the fact that a 20th level wizard is simply more powerful than a 20th level fighter.

5E ameliorates this somewhat. But with the “game-changing” 9th level spells, it seems inevitable that there will be a gap, at least not without messing with spell casting tropes. And of course, the gap is only widest at 20th...it starts well before then.

But is this really a problem? It certainly jives conceptually, but also with fantasy tradition. Of course D&D assumes some degree of balance, and the designers want players to feel happy about playing characters that they want to play, not just for munchkinism.

There is some balance in that non-spellcasters tend to be more powerful—or at least less vulnerable—at lower levels. But somewhere between 5th and 15th level, the tables are turned and martial players watch wistfully as wizards stop time and level armies with meteor swarms.

But we WANT to be able to do that. We want super powerful wizards capable of facing ancient dragons or destroying armies. But we also want our martial characters to remain relevant—not just in terms of role-play, but combat.

So I have one idea. I haven’t really thought it out, so don’t know how well it would actually play at the table, which is partially why I’m bringing it to the collective wisdom of ENWorld. It is this: what if spellcasters were unable to use magic items? The basic setting-specific rationale would be that there is a kind of interference or “shorting out.” A spellcaster’s magic comes from within and thus could not augment their own magic with s external items.

So my question: how would that impact balance and game play? Is it over-compensating too much?

An alternate would be that some magic items would still work, but they are rare and there is a cost of some kind. Or maybe a spell-caster could use magic items, but not stacking in any way with their own magic.

Again, I haven’t thought this through in a meaningful way, but wanted to explore the idea a bit.

Is there any single class caster than can do the amount of single target damage that a fighter can do - even at high level?
 


TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Don't know. Maybe it isn't a problem, as @TwoSix says, in 5E, which I haven't played at high levels. Just a passing idea I had in a spare moment at work.
I mean, I don't want to poo-poo your idea. Modifying rules for magic items is certainly an underappreciated method of affecting game balance in 5E, primarily because no formal methods of evaluating their prevalence exists. But I imagine they're pretty common in a large swath of people's games.

A possible alternative would be that spellcasters don't naturally have attunement slots, but can sacrifice their slots daily to gain one or more attunement slots. That way magic items are a horizontal sidegrade to high-level spells.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Play it before you assume it is a problem.

In my experience, a high level wizard feel special because of all the powerful things he can do - but a high level fighter, paladin, barbarian or ranger can be truly amazing and dealing damage to a single target. I've played a few high level games and the only characters that felt weak were ones that were not designed efficiently.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Play it before you assume it is a problem.

In my experience, a high level wizard feel special because of all the powerful things he can do - but a high level fighter, paladin, barbarian or ranger can be truly amazing and dealing damage to a single target. I've played a few high level games and the only characters that felt weak were ones that were not designed efficiently.

Not just so much damage to a single target, but doing so every round, all day long...
 


pogre

Legend
Our group has played a fair amount of tier 4 now and even a few sessions of epic 20+. However, we have always progressed as a group to those levels. In our experience, everyone cheers when the wizard unleashes her BIG WHAMMY and cheers when the fighter slices the enemy to pieces,etc. Nobody even considers character class balance at all.

I could see it if it were more of an Adventure League situation.

We have not seen one PC dominate encounters in high level play. It may have a lot to do with my group though!
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Our group has played a fair amount of tier 4 now and even a few sessions of epic 20+. However, we have always progressed as a group to those levels. In our experience, everyone cheers when the wizard unleashes her BIG WHAMMY and cheers when the fighter slices the enemy to pieces,etc. Nobody even considers character class balance at all.

I could see it if it were more of an Adventure League situation.

We have not seen one PC dominate encounters in high level play. It may have a lot to do with my group though!

Yeah Crawford talks about balance in terms of narrative moments: does each Class get to do cool things that work with the group?
 

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