Balance my "Stealthy" game rules

[H.Flashman]

don't know how many of you are familiar with the Midnight setting published by Fantasy Flight games but its basically a game where the Heroes cannot count on support from the armies of the good, or aid from noble aristocrats nor even a stale cabbage to fill their bellies from the poorest of commoners. The forces of evil have over taken much of the land and their ruthless oppression makes everyone who does not pay them succour quake in their boots.

Well the PCs, in my campaign, are going to be playing guerillas foiling the supply line of the Orcish hordes and their Warrior-Preist masters. The game is going to be one of stealth, hit-and-run tactics, assassination, and sabotage.
To that end I will be changing a few minor rules:

Massive Damage:
If a single hit does 25 points of damage to a flat-footed target (?only on the first round of combat??) then that target must make a Fortitude Save vs a DC of 15 or immediately be dropped to -1 hit points. The target will contintue to bleed out or stabilize as normal ( 1 hp per round or 10% Stabilization per round).

If a target is not flat-footed then the standard massive Damage threshold applies ( 50 hp of damage in one attack)

This change necessitates a few changes to some feats:
Toughness: In addition to adding 3 hp to your Hit Point total you gain an additional 3 points to your massive damage threshold.

Endurance: in Addition to its normal benefits you may add your Constitution modifer to your Massive Damage Threshold.

Iron Will: In addition to gaining a +2 bonus to your Will saves you may now add your Wisdom modifier rather than your Constitution modifier to your Fortitude save vs Massive Damage.

Subduing an Unaware Target:
If your target is unaware of your presence ( fails his Listen and Spot checks) then you make a knockout blow using non-lethal attacks at standard penalties (usually -4). The target so struck must them make a Fortitude save vs a DC equal to the Damage dealt (minimum of 10) or fall unconscious. If the target rolls a one on his save then he is able to make an utterance or otherwise alert an ally before succumbing.

Healing:
Mundane Healing works normally but magical healing functions differently in a Stealth game.
All "Cure" spells heal the least amount of damage possible for each spell cast if cast upon a awake or dying target. Once the target gets a full 8 hours of sleep the target recovers Hit Points as if the Spell previously cast upon him had been maximized. Ex: Tordek loses 25 HP in combat so Jozan casts a Cure Serious Wounds upon him. Jozan is 8th Level thus his spell normally cures 3d8+8 hp of Damage. Since it is noon and long before tordek can get any rest the spell gives Tordek only 11 HP ( 3d8+8= 3+8==11). Once Tordek can find some lodging the spell does the rest of its work and inthe morning the fighter wakes hale and hearty with an additional 21 hp healed. ( Maximized Cure Serious Wounds minus the 11 points that had already been allocated).

This serves two purposes. It makes it a bit grittier and keep the PCs from avoiding the stealth-driven heart of the game.

Hide and Move Silently:
These both become class skills for every class although the Bard, Ranger and Rogue gain the Bonus feat: Stealthy at 2nd level.

Other rules:
Orcs and Dwarves both gaina +1 bonus to All saves vs Massive Damage.

Feats:
Hard To Kill:
Pre: Con 13, Endurance
Benefit: You gain a second save to avoid death from massive damage albeit the second save receives a -2 penalty.

Silent Slayer:
Pre: Move Silently 8 Ranks
Benefits: So long as your surprise your opponent and he fails to save vs Massive Damage then your opponent dies without a peep and you lay his body so gently upon the ground that not even the most keen-earned elf could hear you.
Normal: You must make an opposed Move Silently Roll vs the Listen skill of any opponent in ear shot.

Subdual Strike:
Pre: Sneak Attack Class ability
Benefit: You may treat your sneak attack damage dice as non-lethal damage. You still suffer the -4 penalty to hit with a non-subdual weapon.
Normal: Unless using a sap Sneak Attack damage is always lethal.

Do these seem balanced or broken? Are there other aspects of a stealth based game that I am forgetting?

 

[Ashtagon]

Feats:

Toughness: This was broken anyway. One feat for a lousy 3 hp total? Adding to the MD threshold is a start, but with a MD threshold of 50, it's still barely worth taking. Note that the classes that would benefit most from an increased MD threshold are also the ones who benefit least from the basic +3 hp benefit.

Endurance: The core concept of this feat is stamina and teh ability to do prolonged physical exertion over an extended period fo time. As such, MD threshold bonuses don't really fit into the concept of the feat.

Iron Will: thematically appropriate, but if you give this "save bonus" feat sometyhing extra, it woukd be appropriate to give something extra to the other two save bonus feats, otherwise they appear unbalanced.

The big issue with MD rules is that it is a variation on "save or suck", in which contuining the usefulness of the character for at least that encounter (and likely the campaign) depends on a single die roll. As written, it looks fine for NPCs. For PCs, I'd make it all the following efects combined:

* Double damage (this may well kill them anyway, on a bad day)
* Character is knocked prone.
* Character must make a Fortitude save to remain conscious.

They are not automatically bleeding to death under this variant. This variant has the following tactical effects:

* The character is not necessarily out of that fight. He is certainly out for at least one round, and given the inevitable low hp, may want to hang back, but he isn't out.
* Because he isn't bleeding to death, he doesn't force a second character to take time out of the fight. Two characters out of a fight can quicky have a domino effect on the party's ability to survive an engagement.

 

[H.Flashman]

To be honest we NEVER play with Massive Damage rules as they result in total party kills very often. I am introducing Massive Damage to allow the PCs to realistically engage in a James Bond-esque game. I like your alternate resluts for failing the Fortitude save. Knock Down is not enough (kind of steps on the toes of some feats) but Knock-down plus one round of Dazzled sounds good.


As for the feat changes. I chose feats that were rarely chosen by my players.

Toughness: I agree that its a pathetic feat unless you develop a powerful feat tree around it. While I agree that adding 3 points to the Massive Damage Threshold of 50 is hardly a bonus to be proud of, improving your Flat-footed Massive Damage threshold from 25 to 28 is a very good deal. I had it more in mind for those who might not have uncanny dodge.

Endurance: Its a great feat but lacks the glamor of Weapon Focus or a meta-magic feat. Its a small bonus but stacks with the improved Toughness feat. While it may not mechanically mesh it does Thematically fit that endurable characters might be able to sustain a bit more damage prior to being forced to make a Save.

Iron Will: In my 7 years of running 3.0/3.5 I have never seen anyone take a save booster feat. The bonus is relatively small, but might be significant enough for some of the Wisdom based characters to consider. The other feats might need bonuses similar to this such as Using Con to save vs area of effect Spells and using Dex to avoid Energy Drain (?)

Do the Campaign specific feats seem good enough?

Thankyou for your input. i had not actually thought of the NPCs getting the drop on the PCS.

Oh and should the Lowered Massive Damage threshhold occur any time that the target is flat-footed or only when they are surprised?

 

[Arkhandus]

It is important to note that someone is only flat-footed when they ARE surprised, or when certain rare abilities are used to render them flat-footed. A few maneuvers in the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, for instance. But hardly anything renders foes flat-footed.

Several things can deny an opponent their Dexterity bonus to AC, but that does not make them flat-footed.

Your stuff here seems OK, but note that in the d20 System, rolling higher is always better. A natural 1 on a saving throw is always an automatic failure, just as with an attack roll. Enemies shouldn't get the chance to speak before falling unconscious from a natural 1 saving throw.....if you want something like that, it should be for when they only fail the save by 1 point (such as rolling a 14 against a DC of 15).

 

[H.Flashman]

When I differentiate between flat-footed and surprise I am referring to beating your enemy's initiative whereas surprise refers to an actual surprise round wherein no enemies get an action. I don't intend for Rogues to be able to force the "25 hp massive damage" rule when they perform a sneak attack.
I think that I will leave it at fFat-footed as Surprise might make it so that the rules never come into use.

The "Rolling a 1= gurgles and alarm" rule is a bit weird but I had it written that there was a 5% chance for an assassinated/knocked-out enemy to alert his allies. By setting a rolled 1 to that 5% I have eliminated a die roll. Rolling a "1" always elicits a reaction and thus it would likely remind of us of the rule. Normally I would agree with you but this just speeds up play and keeps what would be a minor rule memorable.

I want to thankyou so much for your input.