Balance problems with Complete Warrior base classes?

[Remathilis]

Paladins have social skills. Paladins are based around Strength and Charisma. Paladins have a code of honor. Paladins are mounted knights.

The Samurai could easily be a PrC for a Paladin or Paladin/Fighter. Or a chain of Intimidation feats for them, with perhaps one feat that allows you TWF without a high Dex...an alternate...

Paladins are tied to a religious base, favored by some higher power. Thier powers are divine in nature (spells, turning, divine powers). They are also LAWFUL GOOD... Something not all samurai inspire to be.

ONE feat could solve this. Call it Mighty Two-Weapon Fighting. It requires maybe a better BAB, and limits you to only two weapons...you don't need a class.

Now, we've created a prestige class AND a specialized feat (which few in thier right minds woudn't take, the demands for TWF are brutal!) to fill an archtype.

Isn't specialized, elite, and campaign-specific the role for prestige classes? Otherwise, why the heck have ANY?

I dunno. Ask the creators of Midnight, Kalamar, Seven Seas, Rokugan, AU, or most other campaign settings that question. All of those have base classes that are new, specialized, and/or elite. Certainly all are campaign specific.

And TWF with heavy armor is not that mind-boggling. The only 'new' thing the class brings to bear is the intimidation powers, which still work well as a feat chain, or PrC ability progression.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (the Pinnacle feat of the TWF chain) requires a 19 DEX plus TWF, ITWF, and BAB +11. Only Samurai and TWF Rangers can get it without the 19 dex (they technically meet the other requirements at the same time they get the feat for free.)

19 Dex + Heavy Armor = Waste of 19 Dex.

Much better served going light armored. Oh, and rangers can't use this ability outside of light armor. Thus, if you want to wear plate AND TWF as your primary, either sink a 19 into dex or take levels as a samurai.

OR, he could be specialized in excactly that form of fighting without having to multiclass in an elite, specialized, campaign-specific BASE class...or qualifying for an elite, specialized, campaign-specific PRESTIGE class.

His options would be either a fighter (no social skills) or some paladin/fighter/samurai prestige class.

I'm happy they've moved away from the glut of PrC's, but PrC's DO have a role, and should be utilized to fill that role. Base classes are just that -- bases. Basic. Defining of a character from a low level, a pedestal on which to build and ornament with feats and possibly Prestige classes (which represent focus, elitism, or a specific campaign role). I love the Swashbuckler and the Hexblade as base classes, and wouldn't want to take them out of that role.
The Samurai, however, brings nothing *base* to the table. It's not a pedestal, it's a fully ornamented statue already. That's what a PrC can do. That's not a role for the base class....

Samurai: A feudal warrior with alliegance to his lord, several fear based powers, and specialization in two-weapon fighting.
Ranger: A Wilderness warrior with alliegance to nature, several nature based powers, and specialization in archery or two-weapon fighting.
Paladin: A feudal warrior with alliegance to his church, several divine based powers, and specialization in fighting evil.
Barabarian: A wilderness warrior with alliegance to his clan, several rage based powers, and specialization in melee combat.
Swashbucker: A finesse warrior with alliegance to whomever, several acrobatic based powers, and specialization in finesse fighting
Hexblade: An feudal warrior with alliegance to no one, several hex based powers, and specialization in debilitating his adversaries.
Monk: A aesthetic warrior with alliegance to his monistary, several ki based powers, and specialization in unarmed combat.

Not seeing how any of them don't fill the proper starting role, and a unique one in the world. Easily pigeon-hold, but customizable.

This is all just IMHO, but if base classes are used for campaign-specific, elite, specialized warriors what, excatly, do PrC's do?

The crux of this argument is that you argue three things
Campagin-specific: The world has to include some asian ideal of a feudal warrior.
Elite: There is nothing technically elite about a samurai. Nothing more than a paladin or monk.
Specialized: See above.

You can use this argument (in fact, some have) for paladins, rangers, barbarians, swashbucklers, etc. Why include ANY of them as base classe?

I think a base class must fill one of two-criteria, it fills a unique niche OR a certain background. Samurai are born into their status, training from an early age in their methods (skills and fighting). The same arguement can be made for paladins (divine calling), monks (aesthetic training), barbarians (savage born), rangers (loners or wilderness men), hexblades (dark blessings), or swashbucklers (city life and dueling). Each are a viable status for a first level character, a weapon master or demon-hunter is not.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

While the CW Samurai does have its own niche(and not a bad one at that), I think the biggest problem may be calling it a Samurai. I find that the achetype was already covered well enough in OA, and I love that Samurai...so its hard for me to see this one in CW as anything but a cop out.

Now...change the name, alter a bit of flavour, and I've got no problem with it at all.

 

[MerricB]

While the CW Samurai does have its own niche(and not a bad one at that), I think the biggest problem may be calling it a Samurai. I find that the achetype was already covered well enough in OA, and I love that Samurai...so its hard for me to see this one in CW as anything but a cop out.

Now...change the name, alter a bit of flavour, and I've got no problem with it at all.

Heh. Very well - it's a Sword Samurai, a devotee of Kelanen, the Prince of Swords. They seek their path in both their service to their sword and their sworn (mortal) lord.

Cheers!

 

[Skullfyre]

Well, sorry if the fluff gets in the way of the crunch, but here's the deal: Swashbucklers are, first and foremost, nimble. In fact, that's pretty much the quality that defines the class as something other than just a customized Fighter. If that means they get a good Reflex save and a good Fort save, maybe even at the cost of a lower hit die, then so be it I say.

Ok, but what about the duelist prestige class?

Is that not a swashbuckler?

 

[BryonD]

I think they are ok.

The Swashbuckler does hit against a small peeve of mine. Assuming multiclass XP penalties are not a problem, any fighter who would take the Weapon Finesse feat anyway is almost certainly better taking two levels of Swashbuckler. You get a bonus feat and more skill points and grace for two levels of SwB, In place of just a bonus feat for two levels of fighter.

I prefer that any 1/1 BAB class gain no bonus combat feats until level 3 for this reason.

I also agree that the Samurai is a fine class with a very poorly considered name. Same goes for the Ronin PClass. Sure, it may be fine as A ronin. But it is just silly to say that this the THE ronin.

 

[MerricB]

I think they are ok.

The Swashbuckler does hit against a small peeve of mine. Assuming multiclass XP penalties are not a problem, any fighter who would take the Weapon Finesse feat anyway is almost certainly better taking two levels of Swashbuckler. You get a bonus feat and more skill points and grace for two levels of SwB, In place of just a bonus feat for two levels of fighter.

I think the bonuses gained from doing that are small enough that it's not a problem. The extra skill points are really not going to make this multi-class character significantly better - they'll quickly vanish under the mass of low point gains of the fighter.

Against that, the fighter is delayed for two levels from gaining Weapon Specialisation, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialisation - things that are even more important for the weapon finessing fighter.

Cheers!

 

[green slime]

Well, sorry if the fluff gets in the way of the crunch, but here's the deal: Swashbucklers are, first and foremost, nimble. In fact, that's pretty much the quality that defines the class as something other than just a customized Fighter. If that means they get a good Reflex save and a good Fort save, maybe even at the cost of a lower hit die, then so be it I say.

I don't see Reflex saves as being the sole defining characteristic of a "nimble" character. At lower levels the contribution of the Base Save Bonus is exceeded by the base Stat anyway. Then there are feat opportunities. Given that Swashbucklers will likely have extreme Dexterity scores, I can't say I see their present incarnation as un-nimble. I'm more inclined to see swashbucklers as rapier-wielding, self-centered, adventurous, happy-go-lucky fops than nimbleness personified.

Of course your offered solution is a valid one, closely parralleling that of the 3.5 Ranger. (which gets more skill points, and spells to boot!)

 

[MerricB]

I don't see Reflex saves as being the sole defining characteristic of a "nimble" character. At lower levels the contribution of the Base Save Bonus is exceeded by the base Stat anyway. Then there are feat opportunities. Given that Swashbucklers will likely have extreme Dexterity scores, I can't say I see their present incarnation as un-nimble. I'm more inclined to see swashbucklers as rapier-wielding, self-centered, adventurous, happy-go-lucky fops than nimbleness personified.

Of course your offered solution is a valid one, closely parralleling that of the 3.5 Ranger. (which gets more skill points, and spells to boot!)

With the Grace ability, Swashbucklers end up with a Reflex saving throw midway between that of a Fighter and a Thief. When Dex is added into it, they're certainly more nimble than your average fighter, but not overly so - and their superior hit points make up the gap with regard to the thief.

Cheers!

 

[green slime]

Yes, sitting at work without my books, I'd clean forgotten about the grace ability. With that ability, I'd definitely not introduce good Reflex saves to the Swashbuckler.

 

[d4]

i'd still like to drop the swashbuckler's hit die to d8 and give them some sort of level-based AC bonus.

in that case, i'd also of course get rid of their escalating dodge bonus class feature.

when i think swashbuckler i don't necessarily think of someone trained for taking on one opponent at a time (that's a duelist) -- i more often think of Cyrano de Bergerac down on the pier fighting off 30 men at once by himself! a dodge bonus that only works against one opponent isn't really going to help in a situation like that.