Balancing Influx of Clerical Spells?

[galaga88]

For my undead D&D campaign (Not featuring undead, it simply continues to rise from the dead every few months at my players' insistence) I plan on picking up the Spell Compendium.

The problem with this is the huge amount of new spells any clerics will automatically have access to, while Wizards have to learn them the old fashioned way. That simply seems unfair to my favorite pointy-hat afficiandos.

Has this been a problem for anybody in the past? I was considering only allowing PHB spells as 'core', and requiring some kind of research (similar to how a Wizard gains spells) for clerics to use spells from outside sources.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Anything not in the PH is not core and therefore requires DM authorization. Don't fall into that trap of having players try to convince you that they're "entitled" to other spells. If you're adding a lot, swap out other spells on the cleric spell list.

I recently read something in a WotC product that stated exactly that. It recommended substituting spells with an eye towards maintaining the overall balance of spells for any particular level. In other words, not swapping out all the defensive spells for offensive or vice-versa.

 

[shilsen]

You could require casters with access to all spells on their spell list (clerics, druids, etc.) to start with the PHB list, and for each non-PHB spell they want to use, they have to lose access to a PHB spell of the same level. So the number of available spells remains the same.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I allow clerics (and other spellcasters with automatic spell knowledge) to learn any new spells (that is, spells that are not in the PHB) with a spellcraft check, when they see them written down (such as in a spellbook or on a scroll). And also to attempt to "research" new spells in a manner very similar to the way that wizards do.

This way, I have pretty tight control over what spells are or are not allowed into the campaign by simply not making those spells available to the players in a written form until I've had the opportunity to try them out.

Later
silver

 

[Glyfair]

For my campaign, I decided to allow classes that have access to all spells on their spell lists to be able to choose one non-core spell per class level to add to their list. I also plan on stocking the occasional special book of "hidden knowledge" that might give them access to more spells if they study it (for example, a book on fighting abberations might have all the spells from Lords of Madness).

 

[frankthedm]

I do believe any outside source spell has to be researched whether Arcane or Divine.

IIR It is research of 100 GP & 1 day per level of spell.

The player then finds out if it is accepted by the DM.

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem with this is the huge amount of new spells any clerics will automatically have access to, while Wizards have to learn them the old fashioned way. That simply seems unfair to my favorite pointy-hat afficiandos.

Has this been a problem for anybody in the past? I was considering only allowing PHB spells as 'core', and requiring some kind of research (similar to how a Wizard gains spells) for clerics to use spells from outside sources.

Yeah, I pointed out the same problem in a previous discussion. IMHO by the RAW the cleric and the druid can prepare all those spells, unless the DM has not approved the existence of that spell in her campaign at all.

You could play upon the knowledge factor. A cleric may just not know that a spell exist (even if the player does), and therefore may simply have never thought about asking her god to grant that spell. One way or the other, you have to HR it, because IMO the problem lies originally in the PHB rule that "divine casters know all spells on their list".

BTW swapping spells on a one-on-one basis will still be largely advantageous for the player. There's many clerical PHB spells which the character will never cast after all. It's a bit like allowing swapping class skills: the player just chooses to drop the skills/spells which he wouldn't use in any case.

 

[Scharlata]

[...]The problem with this is the huge amount of new spells any clerics will automatically have access to, while Wizards have to learn them the old fashioned way. That simply seems unfair to my favorite pointy-hat afficiandos.[...]

Hi!

I've long drooled over the plethora of cleric spells and decided (just some weeks before the SC hit the shelves) to handle the cleric's spell acquisition the same way as their fellows' - the poor wizards.

Just to get me right. I didn't have a problem with allowing the spells IMC but as the years went on more and more automatic cleric spells came to happen in the minds of the clerics around in my campaign world. That went on to the point that even the power-hungriest players "turned their heads off in disgust".

Now, IMC we have the same options for preparation-spellcasters - no matter what their trade actually is.

The rule for wizards broadening their spell repertoire has been modified only slightly. They know all cantrips in the Player's Handbook! Every other spell is acquired per the normal rules.

The clerics' version of this "rule of acquisition" (pardon the pun) is that every cleric knows only the spells in the Player's Handbook. Just like wizards can copy new spells into their spellbooks, a cleric prays for a new spell (other than those in the PHB) and expends the same costs in gp (for incense and the like). He does not have to have a spellbook but gains the option to cast the newly acquired spell henceforth.

That analogy allows the DM total control over the spells she may allow into her game, and beyond that - that's the interesting part - lets the character's wealth decide what divine spell beyond the normal PHB spells is that important to "burn" money on. Money is - as in real life - a very effective regulative instrument. As a side effect you get a new way for some characters to spend their money on.

As to now, I've had not only nice results but a fellow DM who has adopted the idea with similar results.

Enjoy!

 

[Zaister]

Scharlata's fellow DM would be me. I adapted his idea for my new campaigns with the following house rule for clerics (and in the same vein, also for druids, rangers and paladins):

At 1st level, a cleric has access to all cleric spells listed in the Player’s Handbook, as well as his domain spells, regardless of their source. To gain access to additional spells, a cleric must request the spells from his deity or faith in a special one-time prayer ritual. The cleric must prepare this ritual with special incense and sacrificial objects as fits his deity or faith. These items must value at least 50 gp per total sum of levels of the requested spells. The ritual takes 24 hours regardless of the number of spells requested. The procedure also requires
the cleric to spend 25 XP per total sum of levels of the requested spells. When the ritual is finished, and the cleric has been faithful to the doctrines of his faith, he is granted the requested spells. He adds the spells to his personal spell list, and he can prepare these spells from then on as he would any other spell he knows. A cleric can never request a spell he would not be able to cast, for example because he cannot cast spells of that level,
or because he is forbidden the spell due to an alignment descriptor.
For example, Jozan, the 9th level cleric of Pelor, wants to access two new spells, protection from negative energy (a 3rdlevel spell from Spell Compendium, and stalwart pact (a 5th-level spell from Spell Compendium). He sacrifices incense and gems worth a total of 400 gp (50 gp multiplied by 8 spell levels) to his deity, pays 200 XP (25 XP multiplied by 8 spell levels) and withdraws in prayer for 24 hours. After he finishes the ritual, whenever he prepares spells, he can prepare protection from negative energy and stalwart pact in his 3rd and 5th level spell
slots respectively.
Note: a cleric can always cast a spell from a scroll or use a spell from a wand if that spell is on the general cleric spell list, and is not forbidden to him due to an alignment descriptor. He does not need to have the spell on his personal spell list.

Regards,
Stefan.

 

[schporto]

I tried to use the 'replace your PHB spells with an other source spell' route. I found it didn't add anything to the game, except for some grief from my players every time they gained new spells. So we agreed to just amend it and say the yes clerics, druids do get all those extra spells. We haven't found it to be detremental. They're just as likely to have the wrong spell prepared. I did make the caveat that they could only trade spells they could use. So a good cleric - who can't cast UnHoly Blight - can't exchange it for anything.
I know the mantra of more options makes for more power, but is there some other reason that people really feel that they need to limit this access? I just think the extra options don't generate that much more power.
-cpd