Balancing Spellcasting PrCs [updated with multiclass rule]

[Norfleet]

Balancing the PrC is simple: For every extra "goody" you give a spellcaster on top of the full spellcasting progression, give a penalty as well, so it's not simply "This class is simply better than base wiz/sor", but instead, that the class offers a different set of benefits and drawbacks than continuing in basic wiz/sor. It's really the only way to go, since the only source of real worth in a spellcasting class tends to be spellcasting level, particularly arcanes, because everything else about the class is thoroughly worthless: Worst BAB, worst HP, worst weapon selection, worst armor capability, bad saves(Mages have will, but without a corresponding demand for Wis, it's a mediocre save at best), etc. The loss of familiar progression is minor: Many don't even use familiars simply because of the "shoot the familiar" effect which can turn them into a liability rather than an asset. Therefore, any PrC which offers full or very nearly so casting progression and any other cookie will blow away the base class: Any PrC which doesn't offer full casting progression better offer something damn awesome, or it'll be thoroughly worthless.

Therefore, the solution is simple: Any full-progression spellcaster PrC needs to come with drawbacks, or at least be evil in nature, and grant the character a number of interesting bonusses, such as a house in a warm climate for his old age.

 

[Chacal]

Balancing the PrC is simple: For every extra "goody" you give a spellcaster on top of the full spellcasting progression, give a penalty as well, so it's not simply "This class is simply better than base wiz/sor", but instead, that the class offers a different set of benefits and drawbacks than continuing in basic wiz/sor.

Could you give some examples of interesting penalties ?

I had tried some in full spellcasting PrC, like
" must cast spells from the (two) highest level slots at minimum as a full round action."

The problem is that it's hard to come up with penalties that don't just hinder the character, but also add something fun or flavorful.

Any PrC which doesn't offer full casting progression better offer something damn awesome, or it'll be thoroughly worthless.

As a player, I know that for some types of mages, having new spell levels is more important than having a higher caster level.
Some other like to use lots of metamagics and throwing lots of dices. These ones are less interested in knowing new spells but rather in different ways to use them.

Because of these points of view, I guess non full but flexible spellcasting progression can be worthwhile.

Therefore, the solution is simple: Any full-progression spellcaster PrC needs to come with drawbacks, or at least be evil in nature, and grant the character a number of interesting bonusses, such as a house in a warm climate for his old age.

The Evil part I disagree with as I see it as a role playing drawback that differs from campaign to campaign. As I want to use my PrC in several campaigns, it's not an option for me.


I'm interested in significant and playable drawbacks though.


Chacal

 

[Li Shenron]

Balancing the PrC is simple: For every extra "goody" you give a spellcaster on top of the full spellcasting progression, give a penalty as well, so it's not simply "This class is simply better than base wiz/sor", but instead, that the class offers a different set of benefits and drawbacks than continuing in basic wiz/sor.

The problem that it is not so easy to find reasonable drawbacks, since it is not nice at all to have something going worst as you advance in levels. In fact there are very few classes that collect penalties in advancing.

There IS a common drawback in PrCl advancement, but that's only lower BAB, ST, HD or otherwise it lies in not getting the special feature you would have gained by advancing in the base class. The problem with Wiz/Sor is that there is no lower BAB/ST/HD possible and the only feature they lose is the Familiar. Well, you COULD have a PrCl which gives ST as a Commoner, or BAB lower than +1/2 or custom saves, or HD lower than d4, but there would be no precedence over the rules so far written, and many people may not appreciate it.

I think the solution could have been to give some little special features to Wiz/Sor by level, even minor ones, such as a free Spell Mastery every now and then to the Wizard, or few bonus feats to the Sorcerer too, but 3.5 didn't do that.

 

[Merlion]

Yes, the truth of the matter is the "unbalance" of full spellcasting progression prestige classes really lies more with the base classes. Most of the base classes in DnD, and especialy Wizard and Sorcerer offer no class features apart from gaining greater caster level and more spells. So as has already been said, a prestige class that gives features and full spell progression is going to blow the base class away, and one that gives little or no spell progression is going to be highly unatractive.
And sadly DnD is not a system that deals well with the concept of drawbacks(if indeed there is a system that does). And it is very hard to try and come up with disadvantages that 1) make some kind of sense and 2) are balanced with the benefits that are trying to...balance.
I havent seen the Diamond Throne for Arcana Unearthed yet(the book that has its prestige classes) but I am guessing this issue wont come up in AU, simply because the nature of the AU classes makes one thing twice before doing any sort of multiclassing.

 

[Norfleet]

The problem that it is not so easy to find reasonable drawbacks, since it is not nice at all to have something going worst as you advance in levels.

That is where the room for evil comes in: Great power at a cost. With many of the PrCs in BoVD, I was like, "Okay....and this is what my special choices are in the evil department? I think I'm going to stick with freelancing it."

 

[Chacal]

Yet another multiclass spellcasting rule :

First, you need to determine which classes are "compatible" in terms of casting. The simple way to do it is just saying that arcane classes are compatible with other arcane classes



There are 3 levels of casting compatibility

-Identical (i.e : wizard class and loremaster's levels if wizard is chosen by the PC)

-Compatible ( i.e : arcane with arcane, or whatever suits your campaign)

-non compatible (all others)





Your total casting level in a class is

1-first determined by your caster level in that class and by caster level in identical classes
Usually it's classlevel + prc level or classlevel +halfprc level.

2- raised by half the caster levels in a compatible class
(if you're a cleric 6, Ranger 8, your cleric TCL is 6+4/2 =8 and your ranger TCL is 4+ 6/2 = 7)

3- raised by a third of the remaining levels


With the following rule :
Your TCL is caped at twice your CL from the base class and identical classes.

Thus, a Wiz 4 Clr 16 has a wizard TCL of 8, and a cleric TCL of 18


In this rule I'm only using caster level, not spell knowledge or spell Use level, but I would recommand this for SUL and SKL :

a third of compatible SUL
a fourth of noncompatible SUL.



I'm not sure SKL should raise, though ...


Chacal

 

[Li Shenron]

This is getting too much complicated for my tastes...

However, back to my first question: it seems to me that previous posters are more concerned that it would not help the character much. Do you think it would be worse than a Mystic Theurge? Obviously the MT works only with some combination, while I was kind of looking for a general rule, so that it would benefit also Wiz/Sor or Cle/Dru.

Too bad I cannot post this in the rules forum, since it's house rule, because I think most of the experts in rules balance dwell there and rarely come to this other forum...

 

[Chacal]

This is getting too much complicated for my tastes...

I know, I know ...
It's simpler when applied upon leveling, but still complicated.

However, back to my first question: it seems to me that previous posters are more concerned that it would not help the character much.

Only raising CL will help the character by giving him a chance to bypass SR/ resist dispel/augment spell effects


But raising SUL ( more slots) is really useful IMO, and even more with metamagics.

Do you think it would be worse than a Mystic Theurge?

It would be worse because the mystic theurge gives +1cl for 2 classes and I only give 1.5. Plus the MT gives +1CL, SUL, and SKL.


Here's a simpler rule :
for each spellcasting class, your casting level is
the minimum of twice the levels that traditionally counts as caster level for this class, and your character level.

Same for your SUL, but not for your SKL.

So a Wiz 4 Fight 3 cast as a (min(4*2, 7))= 7th level wiz, but is limited to level2 spells.
a Wiz4 Ftr 18 cast as a (min(4*2, 18))= 8th level wiz, but is limited to level2 spells.

Simpler ?


Chacal