• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Balancing the Warblade

Kmart Kommando

First Post
Swap out rage for whirling frenzy from UA ;) Then don't give them any rage version higher than the base level, and cut the maneuvers to only Tiger Claw, and dump the rest of the Barbarian abilities. Maybe d10 hit points. Raging with a 2hander is powerful, sure, raging with 2 weapons is fun. :cool:
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Gargoyle

Adventurer
Level Substitution Reworked for the barbarian

I decided to go a little farther and make the barbarian level substitution separate from the fighters, to allow for rage, and to take away some of the less subtle disciplines from the barbarian. The recovery of maneuvers is different for the two classes as well.

I made rage delayed a level so that a 1st level barbarian using these options isn't too good. I also made it more difficult for barbarians to recover their maneuvers, unless they used rage to do so. :)

You could substitute Whirlwind Frenzy for rage, if that appeals to you.

Note that I see these as more like my versions of the warblade class, rather than "Hey here is another way to build a fighter or barbarian." To me these are the way warblades should have been done.

Fighters as Martial Adepts

Fighters can choose to devote some of their martial training to learning disciplines of the Sublime Way.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not start with heavy armor or tower shield proficiency, and you do not gain a bonus feat at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th levels.
Benefit: You begin the game with knowledge of 3 maneuvers and 1 stance chosen from the Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven disciplines.
Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it. A maneuver usable by fighters is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.
You learn additional maneuvers and stances and may learn a new maneuver in place of an existing one as as a warblade of the same level.
You may recover all expended maneuvers with a standard action to attack or to do nothing more than a harmless flourish with your weapon.
At 20th level, you gain the ability to use two stances at the same time.
You may use any maneuvers, stances, feats, or items as a warblade of the same level.
You gain (4 + Int modifier) X 4 skills at 1st level, and 4 skill points + Int modifier at each addtional level.
Add the Balance, Concentration, Diplomacy, Martial Lore, and Tumble skills to your list of class skills.

Barbarians as Martial Adepts

Barbarians can use the more ferocious disciplines of the Sublime Way, and even use their rage to refocus their powers.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain fast movement or damage reduction. Your ability to rage is diminished. All of your rage class abilities are gained one level later, and you do not gain the abilities of tireless rage, mighty rage, and rage 6/day. For instance, you gain the ability to rage 1/day at 2nd level, rage 2/day at 5th level, and so on.
Benefit: You begin the game with knowledge of 3 maneuvers and 1 stance chosen from the Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Tiger Claw disciplines.
Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it. A maneuver usable by barbarians is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.
You learn additional maneuvers and stances and may learn a new maneuver in place of an existing one as as a warblade of the same level.
You may recover a single expended maneuver with a standard action to attack or to do nothing more than a harmless flourish with your weapon. You also recover all expended maneuvers whenever you go into a rage.
At 20th level, you gain the ability to use two stances at the same time.
You may use any maneuvers, stances, feats, or items as a warblade of the same level, as long as they do not require access to the Diamond Mind or White Raven disciplines or the Concentration or Diplomacy skills.
Add the Balance, Martial Lore, and Tumble skills to your list of class skills.
 
Last edited:

Gargoyle

Adventurer
Kmart Kommando said:
Swap out rage for whirling frenzy from UA ;) Then don't give them any rage version higher than the base level, and cut the maneuvers to only Tiger Claw, and dump the rest of the Barbarian abilities. Maybe d10 hit points. Raging with a 2hander is powerful, sure, raging with 2 weapons is fun. :cool:

Thanks for the feedback, I took it into consideration.
 


Gargoyle said:
War Master's Charge: This gets crazy when you have a bunch of small, weak allies attacking a larger creature. Even 10 allies gives a +20 bonus to everyone's attack rolls and will likely result in +300 bonus points of damage plus whatever regular damage is done. Not a big deal against creatures of the same size, but when they can all charge... it could make the party's enlarged fighter or wildshaped druid look like swiss cheese. I am going to limit this to a number of allies equal to half your Charisma. It's still good, just not insane.

It is powerful but, unlike a lot of other specials, it requires allies.

I think the efficacy depends on how you interpret the actions sequence. IMO, this one requires everyone charging at the same time (readied actions) and the warmaster must remain in range. I can't recall if this is one of the feats that lets you pass through other allies' squares without issue but there's still the problem of either running out of occuppiable space (20 kobolds attacking one giant) or having to cross treacherous terrain (aka corpses).

I think this is more of an NPC power than one for PCs, simply because heroes rarely use their followers in combat and PCs aren't generally that good at working in concert. (Though I think ToB could train them to) The party should fear the Wb or evil Crusader with this one.
 

Gargoyle

Adventurer
kigmatzomat said:
It is powerful but, unlike a lot of other specials, it requires allies.

I think the efficacy depends on how you interpret the actions sequence. IMO, this one requires everyone charging at the same time (readied actions) and the warmaster must remain in range. I can't recall if this is one of the feats that lets you pass through other allies' squares without issue but there's still the problem of either running out of occuppiable space (20 kobolds attacking one giant) or having to cross treacherous terrain (aka corpses).

In your opinion it might require readied actions. As written, the maneuver specifies that the allies can take an immediate action to charge; they don't have to ready an action or even give up a full attack on an action later in the round. And yes, you can pass through each other's squares to get there. Terrain is hardly going to make a difference in many situations.

I think this is more of an NPC power than one for PCs, simply because heroes rarely use their followers in combat and PCs aren't generally that good at working in concert. (Though I think ToB could train them to) The party should fear the Wb or evil Crusader with this one.

I like how the maneuver works, I just don't like that it has no damage cap. The cumulative bonuses add up too quickly. I agree that it is only broken in certain situations, but if it were written right, then those situations wouldn't be a problem.
 

Kmart Kommando

First Post
In the PHB2, there are teamwork abilities that allow for some cool things a party can do by, well, being a team. One lets you charge and other characters get out of your way so they don't block the charge. I think it's something like : Team Leader needs 8 ranks in Jump, everyone else needs 1 rank in Jump to participate. They are quite useful tactics, and are limited by level and/or skill ranks to learn.
 

Dante Inferno

First Post
Taking #3 a bit (ok, a lot) further...how about completely eliminating the ability to replenish maneuvers during a fight? Most of the arguments that the warblade is unbalanced seem to be based around the idea that he's competitive with the other fighter classes without his maneuvers...limiting him to a finite number of maneuvers in each combat would certainly go a long way towards reining him in. (I'm actually considering this variant for all three of the martial adept classes)

I'm also of the opinion that each of the adept classes gets 2 too many skill points per level. The crusader, for instance, has less skill responsibilities than his non-adept counterpart (the paladin) and yet gets twice as many skill points. The swordsage very much fills the role of the monk...but again has a two skill point advantage.
 

icedrake

Explorer
Personally, I don't mind the skill points each class gets.

I think dropping the HD might be a bit much because the class does only get medium armor, I know they could multiclass, but they shouldn't have to. Have you play tested the class before trying to modify it?

I will agree that the full round attack action to regain spent manuvers could be a bit much. I think a standard action, either a flurish or single melee attack would not be too overpowered to regain manuvers. I'm thinking of doing something similar with the swordsage, but I'll need to first play the class out before I completely make up my mind.
 

Alceste

First Post
Dante Inferno said:
Taking #3 a bit (ok, a lot) further...how about completely eliminating the ability to replenish maneuvers during a fight? Most of the arguments that the warblade is unbalanced seem to be based around the idea that he's competitive with the other fighter classes without his maneuvers...limiting him to a finite number of maneuvers in each combat would certainly go a long way towards reining him in. (I'm actually considering this variant for all three of the martial adept classes)

I'm also of the opinion that each of the adept classes gets 2 too many skill points per level. The crusader, for instance, has less skill responsibilities than his non-adept counterpart (the paladin) and yet gets twice as many skill points. The swordsage very much fills the role of the monk...but again has a two skill point advantage.

From having both a paladin and a crusader in a game, the paladin has some damage dealing advantages (divine sac / divine might) while the crusader is great at defending/ helping others setup. The different skill setups help balance the two imo.

The swordsage seems in between a monk and a rogue, thus the swordsage has more skill points but also has a weak fort save which is huge for a front line light fighter.

Back to the main topic, my group decided to go with the full round action to recharge maneuvers like the swordsage. We have not fought a warblade or had someone want to play one yet thou. The next time I run, I will have to include a couple warblade opponets to see how well they work.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top