Bane - Bows and Arrows

[Hypersmurf]

(in relation to a +5 Bow firing a +1 Bane Arrow)

I fail to see the difference...

A +1 Bane arrow has an effective enhancement bonus +2 better than normal against its designated opponent: +3.

So we have a +5 bow shooting a (effectively) +3 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +5 attack, +5 and +2d6 damage.

If we have a +1 bow shooting a +5 Bane arrow, that's a +1 bow shooting a (effectively) +7 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +7 attack, +7 and +2d6 damage.

+1 bow/+5 Bane arrow and +5 bow/+1 Bane arrow are not interchangeable scenarios.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

A +1 Bane arrow has an effective enhancement bonus +2 better than normal against its designated opponent: +3.

So we have a +5 bow shooting a (effectively) +3 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +5 attack, +5 and +2d6 damage.

If we have a +1 bow shooting a +5 Bane arrow, that's a +1 bow shooting a (effectively) +7 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +7 attack, +7 and +2d6 damage.

+1 bow/+5 Bane arrow and +5 bow/+1 Bane arrow are not interchangeable scenarios.

-Hyp.

Sure they are. The +5 bow shooting a +1 Bane arrow = a +5 Bane arrow that becomes +7 (+2d6 damage) if it would hit the appropriate target.

The +1 Bane bow firing a +5 arrow fires a +5 Bane arrow that becomes +7 (+2d6 damage) if it would hit the appropriate target.

The rules are a bit fuzzy on exactly how this is supposed to work, but it's fairly clear from the way Bows and Arrows work that it should not make any difference which is enchanted in what way for the ammuntion to get the same result.

My way follows the rules and lets the end result be the same no matter which is the bow and which is the ammunition, which is as it should be.

The real unknown is WHEN the arrow "knows" the opponent is the Bane opponent. The rules do not specify this, though it is hard to think it anything other than when striking - extra penetration power, in effect.

 

[ValhallaGH]

A +1 Bane arrow has an effective enhancement bonus +2 better than normal against its designated opponent: +3.

So we have a +5 bow shooting a (effectively) +3 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +5 attack, +5 and +2d6 damage.

If we have a +1 bow shooting a +5 Bane arrow, that's a +1 bow shooting a (effectively) +7 arrow, and the better of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

Result: +7 attack, +7 and +2d6 damage.

+1 bow/+5 Bane arrow and +5 bow/+1 Bane arrow are not interchangeable scenarios.

So it comes down to a question of when the bane effect is applied; namely is it applied before or after the largest enhancement bonus is applied to the attack.

I have yet to see anything that answers this question, leaving it open to interpretation. Or have I overlooked the answer?

 

[Artoomis]

So it comes down to a question of when the bane effect is applied; namely is it applied before or after the largest enhancement bonus is applied to the attack.

I have yet to see anything that answers this question, leaving it open to interpretation. Or have I overlooked the answer?

I provided you a logical answer, but it is hardly a definitive absolutely positively must-be-true answer.

It's just an answer that makes sense and makes everything work nicely.

 

[mvincent]

it should not make any difference which is enchanted in what way for the ammuntion to get the same result.

I agree with this notion, and the matter seems open enough to permit this interpretation (an extremely literal interpretation might say different, but that doesn't necessarily invalidate an opposing view). For simplicity, they should do the same, and that seems to follow D&D's precedent and intent.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I provided you a logical answer, but it is hardly a definitive absolutely positively must-be-true answer.

It's just an answer that makes sense and makes everything work nicely.

I was referring to a rules citation that actually answers the question.


My personal interpretation agrees with you but I am a big enough person to admit that my personal interpretation does not always agree with the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

I was referring to a rules citation that actually answers the question.


My personal interpretation agrees with you but I am a big enough person to admit that my personal interpretation does not always agree with the rules.

I think my answer agrees with the rules. I also think it is not the only possible answer that agrees with the rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So it comes down to a question of when the bane effect is applied; namely is it applied before or after the largest enhancement bonus is applied to the attack.

I have yet to see anything that answers this question, leaving it open to interpretation. Or have I overlooked the answer?

The Bane effect increases the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

The enhancement bonus of the weapon, when it's a Bane arrow, is the enhancement bonus of the arrow.

A +3 bow has a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. A +1 arrow has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. The enhancement bonuses of the bow and the arrow do not stack; only the better one applies. Applies to what? To attack rolls and damage rolls.

The enhancement bonus of the bow has nothing to do with the enhancement bonus of the arrow; we only compare the two to see which bonus we apply to our attack and damage rolls.

So when the Bane quality increases the enhancement bonus of the arrow, why would we alter the enhancement bonus of the bow? The bow doesn't have the Bane quality.

The Bane quality increases the enhancement bonus of the arrow, and the better of the enhancement bonuses of bow and arrow apply.

Now, this is indeed assuming that the Bane quality is considered before we determine whether the enhancement bonus of bow or arrow applies. Let's look at what might happen if we determine whether the enhancement bonus of bow or arrow applies before we consider the Bane quality of the arrow.

Let's take a +3 bow shooting a +2 Bane arrow. We determine whether the enhancement bonus of bow or arrow applies - the bow is better, so the bow's enhancement applies to attack and damage rolls. Now we consider Bane, which increases the arrow's enhancement bonus from +2 to +4... but it doesn't matter, because we have already determined that the bow's enhancement bonus (+3) applies, not the arrow's enhancement bonus (+4).

If we consider Bane before making that determination, the arrow's effective bonus (+4) will apply, not the bow's bonus (+3).

So depending on which order we consider the two factors, we apply either a +3 or a +4 to our attack and damage rolls. But in neither case can we make the arrow's Bane quality apply to the bow's enhancement bonus - the bow does not have the Bane quality! So +5 cannot occur.

-Hyp.

 

[erple2]

The Bane effect increases the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

The enhancement bonus of the weapon, when it's a Bane arrow, is the enhancement bonus of the arrow.

Maybe that's the confusion. When you fire a bow and arrow, the Weapon is the "Bow-n-Arrow" not "the Bow" and a separate weapon "the Arrow"...

A +3 bow has a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. A +1 arrow has a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls. The enhancement bonuses of the bow and the arrow do not stack; only the better one applies. Applies to what? To attack rolls and damage rolls.

The enhancement bonus of the bow has nothing to do with the enhancement bonus of the arrow; we only compare the two to see which bonus we apply to our attack and damage rolls.

So when the Bane quality increases the enhancement bonus of the arrow, why would we alter the enhancement bonus of the bow? The bow doesn't have the Bane quality.

That's right. It's the arrow that has the bane quality, and thus applies when that arrow is fired at a "favored" target.

The Bane quality increases the enhancement bonus of the arrow, and the better of the enhancement bonuses of bow and arrow apply.

No, the Bane quality increases the effective enhancement bonus of the Weapon being employed (in this case, Bow-n-Arrow)

Let's take a +3 bow shooting a +2 Bane arrow. We determine whether the enhancement bonus of bow or arrow applies - the bow is better, so the bow's enhancement applies to attack and damage rolls. Now we consider Bane, which increases the arrow's enhancement bonus from +2 to +4...

Wait. You just said that the Bow's enhancement bonus of +3 is used, and thus the shot is taken using +3. So why does the +2 vs +4 come in to play? You've already determined to use +3. Now, the Arrow's Bane bonus kicks in - increasing the effective bonus of the shot to +5...

but it doesn't matter, because we have already determined that the bow's enhancement bonus (+3) applies, not the arrow's enhancement bonus (+4).

If we consider Bane before making that determination, the arrow's effective bonus (+4) will apply, not the bow's bonus (+3).

So depending on which order we consider the two factors, we apply either a +3 or a +4 to our attack and damage rolls. But in neither case can we make the arrow's Bane quality apply to the bow's enhancement bonus - the bow does not have the Bane quality! So +5 cannot occur.

-Hyp.

I still fail to see the substantive support in the rule section that applies here.

That's true that the Bow doesn't have the Bane quality, the arrow does. Thus any shot that the arrow makes is treated as Bane. As a result, the Bane quality is applied to the arrow. However, I can certainly see some of the logic that you are describing: Ultimately, it boils down to WHEN the Bane quality is applied. Is that before the total bonus is determined, or after the total bonus is determined. Maybe that's also in how you would interpret the following:

+1 fiery bow shoots a +2 arrow. Is the arrow that subsequently gets shot a +2 fiery arrow, or an arrow that is +2 that does +2 +1D6 damage on target. If you interpret it as the first, then Artoomis' (and WotC's, and my) interpretation is correct. If instead, you choose the second, then you are correct, (and WotC, Artoomis and myself are wrong).

However, ultimately, it seems that I won't be able to ever convince you that your interpretation isn't correct, and you can't convince me that my interpretation is incorrect.

Ahh... Rules debates! Too much fun!

BTW, this sounds like a GREAT debate to be had over Beers...

 

[Hypersmurf]

No, the Bane quality increases the effective enhancement bonus of the Weapon being employed (in this case, Bow-n-Arrow)

The Bane quality increases the effective enhancement bonus of the weapon that has that quality.

Wait. You just said that the Bow's enhancement bonus of +3 is used, and thus the shot is taken using +3. So why does the +2 vs +4 come in to play? You've already determined to use +3. Now, the Arrow's Bane bonus kicks in - increasing the effective bonus of the shot to +5...

The Bane quality doesn't affect the 'shot'; it affects the enhancement bonus of the weapon that has that quality. The weapon that has the Bane quality is the arrow, but we've already determined that the enhancement bonus of the arrow is irrelevant in this case, because the bow had the better of the two enhancement bonuses. So regardless of how much the Bane quality affects the enhancement bonus of the arrow, it has no effect on 'the shot'.

+1 fiery bow shoots a +2 arrow. Is the arrow that subsequently gets shot a +2 fiery arrow, or an arrow that is +2 that does +2 +1D6 damage on target. If you interpret it as the first, then Artoomis' (and WotC's, and my) interpretation is correct. If instead, you choose the second, then you are correct, (and WotC, Artoomis and myself are wrong).

It's a +2 arrow that has had the Flaming energy bestowed upon it, per the description:
Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.

So it's an arrow that deals +1d6 fire damage; the +2 (as the better of the two enhancement bonuses, +2 and +1) enhancement bonus is applied. So the attack roll has a +2, the damage roll has a +2, and +1d6 fire damage is added.

I'm not sure where you're lumping WotC in here; I have no problem with Trevor's CustServ answer above. He addressed a +1 bow shooting a +5 Bane arrow, which I don't think is at issue. The disagreement is coming over a +5 bow shooting a +1 Bane arrow, which Trevor didn't address at all.

-Hyp.