Bane - Bows and Arrows

[mvincent]

Bane doesn't add a bonus, though; it makes an existing bonus better. It's more like an increase than a bonus.

It appears to be an unnamed bonus to an enhancement bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It appears to be an unnamed bonus to an enhancement bonus.

Well, unnamed bonuses normally stack, don't they? Isn't Bane: Lawful Outsiders a different source to Bane: Evil Outsiders?

But I don't think it's an unnamed bonus; I still think it's an effective increase... in the same way that your Str score going up at level 4 isn't an unnamed bonus...

-Hyp.

 

[PallidPatience]

If you're going to penalize an archer for trying to benefit from two separate, applicable bane abilities (as in the Lawful and Evil outsiders example above), then you had probably better do the same with melee weapons. Which, of course, makes an extremely focused character worse at combating a specific type of foes, which shouldn't ever be the case.

 

[mvincent]

Well, unnamed bonuses normally stack, don't they?

Not from the same source (i.e. same type of spell, etc.). In this case, the type of source is bane bonus.

But I don't think it's an unnamed bonus; I still think it's an effective increase.

It adds +2 to the enhancement bonus under certain circumstances. That seems like a bonus (using the conventional and D&D definition). Bonuses to bonuses have some precedence in D&D (i.e. amulet of natural armor).

 

[mvincent]

If you're going to penalize an archer for trying to benefit from two separate, applicable bane abilities (as in the Lawful and Evil outsiders example above), then you had probably better do the same with melee weapons.

Yes, the rules I'm going by here would be applicable to both situations. Note though that I have no desire to penalize anyone, just trying to apply the rules as correctly as possible (i.e. as they appear to me).

The stacking rules say that magical effects "that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves*."

* by "themselves" they mean the same type of effect

 

[Hypersmurf]

It adds +2 to the enhancement bonus under certain circumstances. That seems like a bonus (using the conventional and D&D definition). Bonuses to bonuses have some precedence in D&D (i.e. amulet of natural armor).

And Barkskin and the Amulet of Natural Armor are both described as such - an enhancement bonus to a bonus.

Bane states that the effective bonus is better. It alters the bonus, rather than providing a bonus to the bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

I believe a bane bow firing an arrow and a bow firing a bane arrow are equivalent. In either case, the arrow ends up with the bane property. I do not consider a +1 bane bow's enhancement bonus to be +3; it is a +1 bow with the bane property. As soon as it is fired at an appropriate opponent, it receives an effective increase (or a bonus to its bonus, however you want to look at it). Bows and arrows have a method for determining their bonus, and bane increases the "normal" bonus. A +1 arrow fired from a +5 bow is normally treated as +5.

The case of the bane, bane longsword is an interesting... can a weapon be enchanted more than once with the bane property? It seems to me that bane is a property, and you choose which kind of bane. Allowing more than one version of bane seems okay, but I don't see that it's allowed. As nearly as I can tell, bow and arrow is the only way to get bane (chaotic outsider) and bane (evil outsider) on the same weapon.

It is interesting to ponder whether a bane weapon can benefit from Greater Magic Weapon... is a +1 longsword affected by a +3 GMP "normally" a +1 weapon or a +3 one?

 

[mvincent]

Bane states that the effective bonus is better. It alters the bonus, rather than providing a bonus to the bonus.

This seems to be a semantic issue then. Again, it seems like a bonus to me. I have a hard time viewing the term "bonus" as not being applicable to the additional +2 that bane provides. I'm curious if the writers or other people on these boards also feel that it is not a bonus. Anyone?

Also, would you change your opinion on bane stacking if both the arrow and the bow had the same type of bane (i.e. both bane: evil outsider)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, would you change your opinion on bane stacking if both the arrow and the bow had the same type of bane (i.e. both bane: evil outsider)?

Yes - I'd consider that to be the same as if the bow and arrow were both Flaming. The arrow is Flaming, and the bow makes it so that the arrow is Flaming, and the result is an arrow that is Flaming, which adds +1d6 fire damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Venator]

Just quickly skimmed through the thread. so forgive me if i mis-read anything.

If the current debate is whether or not an Outsider (lawful) Bane Longbow firing an Outsider (evil) Bane Arrow deals an additional 4d6 i think the answer is yes. I do not think these are "like" bonuses. I view it just like a flaming bow shot an ice arrow. Both sources are energy of different types so they stack.

If the debate is whether or not an Outsider (lawful) Bane Longbow firing an Outsider (lawful) Arrow deals +4d6 i think the answer is no. It would deal +2d6 just like a flaming bow firing a flaming arrow.