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Hero
Why do we need a mana-based spell system? How does that differ from psionics, really?
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Banishing "Sacred Cows"
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Irda Ranger
First Post
Joshua Dyal said:
It doesn't. That's why I don't think one is needed. Keep Psions almost exactly the same, swap in the Wizard spell list, and Sheh-bang!: Mana Mage.
The thing that bothers me is the Sorcerer/Wizard thing. They are too similar. I'd rather have the Psion with the Wizard spell list and the Wheel of Time's over-channeling/ fatigue rules than a Sorcerer. At least that way it would "feel" different from the Wizard.
Irda Ranger
Bob Aberton
First Post
Y'know, these changes are all well and good, but:
DO THEY MAKE IT BETTER?
I mean, look at it seriously.
Does freeform/WP/VP/classless/manabased/whatever make it better?
Or does it just make it NOT DnD?
I mean, I LIKE DnD THE WAY IT IS
Does anyone here ACTUALLY LIKE the fact that their 200 hp fighter can laugh at atom bombs?
Does anyone here ACTUALLY LIKE the fact that right now the system is easy? Add in DR, WP/VP, all these other pointless changes, it just isn't EASY anymore.
I don't WANT to have to spend hours adding up my character's damage, then subtracting DR and THEN worrying about logging said damage on TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF HITPOINTS.
I happen to like the HEROIC flavor of DnD. As a very wise poster on these boards once said,
"I play DnD to be a kick-ass hero. I don't want to roleplay the miserable life of the typical medieval peasant! Screw that!"
I agree with that sentiment. Some will call me a "munchkin" or a "roll-player" no doubt, for not wanting to play a game where the 'big hero" lives in fear of peasants throwing rocks, because a peasant might score a crit, doing away with the big hero's 1 HP and give him a concussion and leaving him a drooling idiot for the rest of the time! Whoot!
In a game where the big bad heroes have 4 WP and 1 VP, I just wouldn't have fun. Some people may enjoy Grim 'n' Gritty, but if that becomes the "official" style of DnD, I'll quit.
No doubt a large portion of the consumer base also feels this way.
Let the Flames Begin!
DO THEY MAKE IT BETTER?
I mean, look at it seriously.
Does freeform/WP/VP/classless/manabased/whatever make it better?
Or does it just make it NOT DnD?
I mean, I LIKE DnD THE WAY IT IS
Does anyone here ACTUALLY LIKE the fact that their 200 hp fighter can laugh at atom bombs?
Does anyone here ACTUALLY LIKE the fact that right now the system is easy? Add in DR, WP/VP, all these other pointless changes, it just isn't EASY anymore.
I don't WANT to have to spend hours adding up my character's damage, then subtracting DR and THEN worrying about logging said damage on TWO DIFFERENT SETS OF HITPOINTS.
I happen to like the HEROIC flavor of DnD. As a very wise poster on these boards once said,
"I play DnD to be a kick-ass hero. I don't want to roleplay the miserable life of the typical medieval peasant! Screw that!"
I agree with that sentiment. Some will call me a "munchkin" or a "roll-player" no doubt, for not wanting to play a game where the 'big hero" lives in fear of peasants throwing rocks, because a peasant might score a crit, doing away with the big hero's 1 HP and give him a concussion and leaving him a drooling idiot for the rest of the time! Whoot!
In a game where the big bad heroes have 4 WP and 1 VP, I just wouldn't have fun. Some people may enjoy Grim 'n' Gritty, but if that becomes the "official" style of DnD, I'll quit.
No doubt a large portion of the consumer base also feels this way.
Let the Flames Begin!
jgbrowning
Hero
dnd
i agree with pretty much everything here but,
really all AC and HP are are relative measures of what happens when someone attack someone else.
they dont really "match" anything in the real world.. its easier to view them as two parts of an equation designed to produce a particualar result. quibbling over how AC is not realistic really has nothing to do with the game since AC is just part of an equation designed to handle damage, the other part being HP, the third weapon damage amount, and the fourth various adjustments.
it not ment to accurately mimic the real world, it ment to act as a rough back of the envelope method of solving certain issues.
that being said, i still agree with you...
joe b.
Lord Vangarel said:
i agree with pretty much everything here but,
really all AC and HP are are relative measures of what happens when someone attack someone else.
they dont really "match" anything in the real world.. its easier to view them as two parts of an equation designed to produce a particualar result. quibbling over how AC is not realistic really has nothing to do with the game since AC is just part of an equation designed to handle damage, the other part being HP, the third weapon damage amount, and the fourth various adjustments.
it not ment to accurately mimic the real world, it ment to act as a rough back of the envelope method of solving certain issues.
that being said, i still agree with you...
joe b.
Psychotic Dreamer said:
Last I knew, the original purpose of daggers was that early technology wasn't capable of making a blade any longer than that, especially out of bronze.
Think about it... can you easilly drive a knife through a tin can if you were so inclined? You it trash you nice knife? A dagger should be all-but useless against plate armor, that's the entire purpose of plate armor, to be encased. Of course you can still roll that natural 20 tohit... and find a chink in the armor.
I agree, btw, about armor absorbing damage, always have. Hit points, well.. mostly agree there, too
jgbrowning
Hero
Wolvorine said:
Last I knew, the original purpose of daggers was that early technology wasn't capable of making a blade any longer than that, especially out of bronze.
Think about it... can you easilly drive a knife through a tin can if you were so inclined? You it trash you nice knife? A dagger should be all-but useless against plate armor, that's the entire purpose of plate armor, to be encased. Of course you can still roll that natural 20 tohit... and find a chink in the armor.
I agree, btw, about armor absorbing damage, always have. Hit points, well.. mostly agree there, too
The steletto was designed to punch through the "chinks" in full plate. typical tactic was to just knock the Knight down, pin his sword arm and stab him to death through the underarm sections or through the holes in his helmet.
joe b.
Lord Vangarel said:
I just don't see the point in implementing this. Sure, it's more realistic, but the modifications to the system necessary to make this work would be more trouble than it's worth. It would require an entire re-working of damage, armor class, hit points, and attack rolls. Realism isn't a big enough deal to make the work involved worth the trouble, IMO.
Lord Vangarel said:
I don't think we necessarily need new rules in order to do this. Players recognize spells because the DM or the player casting always describes the spell the same way. I think a little more creative descriptions from the DM side of things can help make magic appear more mysterious.
The Sigil
Mr. 3000 (Words per post)
Shameless plug, and some ideas...
And now, some actual input...
What sacred cows would I banish in D&D? None. Why? Because third-party companies have been putting forth a plethora of options and most of the "fixes" I have seen suggested here have already been done by somebody, somewhere. And if they haven't been, they're usually darn simple to implement.
Want Sorcerers and Wizards to have different spell lists? Done! (Book of Eldritch Might II)
Want alternative magic systems? Done! (Occult Lore and Spells & Magic spring to mind)
Want to change the way armor works? Done! (Arms & Armor)
Want bards to have more musical focus? Done! (Enchiridion of Mystic Music and/or BoEM2)
Want a system of making players fight less effectively when not at full hp? Easy - just assign them various fatigue levels when they hit 75, 50, and 25% of hit points - a character at 75% of full hp is fatigued, a character at 50% of full hit points is exhausted and a character at 25% of full hit points is both exhausted and staggered (house-rule, but could easily have been published elsewhere). That wasn't hard, and it's using stuff already within the system.
As to those who want to do away with classes and make sure everything is balanced, let me introduce you to a little game called GURPS. Seriously, though, just make a little judgment call here and there and people can create their own classes... perhaps they want a Fighter variant who gets a better Reflex save (or whatever) - tell them they can take improve their Reflex saves from "poor" to "good" if they drop their BAB from ("best" to "middle") or if they give up, say, 3 Feats (perhaps those gained at 2nd, 8th, and 14th levels). I may be in the minority, but I happen to like the class and level system - but it's been better defended in the aforementioned Line Of Sight article.
My 2 cents. I think if you wait another 2-3 years, you will be able - with the right set of supplements - to create the 3e rules that you want to play. And the best part is that as long as the stuff is done by 3rd-party companies, it's all OGC (by definition) so you can compile your ruleset and print it for all of us to see and we will praise and adore you (or try to improve on it).
--The Sigil
*Shameless plug* - Check out my Enchiridion of Mystic Music at http://www.rpgnow.com - I think it helps the flavor of the bard immensely.Psychotic Dreamer said:
And now, some actual input...
What sacred cows would I banish in D&D? None. Why? Because third-party companies have been putting forth a plethora of options and most of the "fixes" I have seen suggested here have already been done by somebody, somewhere. And if they haven't been, they're usually darn simple to implement.
Want Sorcerers and Wizards to have different spell lists? Done! (Book of Eldritch Might II)
Want alternative magic systems? Done! (Occult Lore and Spells & Magic spring to mind)
Want to change the way armor works? Done! (Arms & Armor)
Want bards to have more musical focus? Done! (Enchiridion of Mystic Music and/or BoEM2)
Want a system of making players fight less effectively when not at full hp? Easy - just assign them various fatigue levels when they hit 75, 50, and 25% of hit points - a character at 75% of full hp is fatigued, a character at 50% of full hit points is exhausted and a character at 25% of full hit points is both exhausted and staggered (house-rule, but could easily have been published elsewhere). That wasn't hard, and it's using stuff already within the system.
As to those who want to do away with classes and make sure everything is balanced, let me introduce you to a little game called GURPS.
Seriously, though, just make a little judgment call here and there and people can create their own classes... perhaps they want a Fighter variant who gets a better Reflex save (or whatever) - tell them they can take improve their Reflex saves from "poor" to "good" if they drop their BAB from ("best" to "middle") or if they give up, say, 3 Feats (perhaps those gained at 2nd, 8th, and 14th levels). I may be in the minority, but I happen to like the class and level system - but it's been better defended in the aforementioned Line Of Sight article.My 2 cents. I think if you wait another 2-3 years, you will be able - with the right set of supplements - to create the 3e rules that you want to play. And the best part is that as long as the stuff is done by 3rd-party companies, it's all OGC (by definition) so you can compile your ruleset and print it for all of us to see and we will praise and adore you (or try to improve on it).
--The Sigil
kengar
First Post
With changing hit points, while it's true that the current system reflects the character becoming more & more adept at surviving a combat (rolling with punches, etc.), it has always seemed odd to me that these points require the same healing that an actual injury does. Personally, I would like to see a distinction between the two -like WP/VP- but I understand why some folks don't want/need the added complexity.
For me:
There are other things about DnD that I'm not entirely crazy about, but I don't think they should necessarily be changed; detectable alignments, dependence on magic items, etc. etc. These things are "tweakable" in house rules.
For me:
- WP/VP- style hit points (included as variant rules, at least)
- Armor as DR (or hybrid a la GURPS)
- Hit Location
There are other things about DnD that I'm not entirely crazy about, but I don't think they should necessarily be changed; detectable alignments, dependence on magic items, etc. etc. These things are "tweakable" in house rules.
Tzarevitch
First Post
My $.02.
1) Separate the item creation feats a bit better.
Craft Wondrous Item is too broad. It is the uber item creation feat because under the rules you can use it to duplicate stuff from all of the other item creation feats except Arms and Armor.
Place all magical clothing into their own category (Weave Wondrous Clothing or something). Take anything that is fundamentally a dust or an ointment and put it under Brew Potion (i call this new category Magical Brew). Remove all magical jewlery and place it under Rings (new category= Craft Jewelry). Wondrous Architecture should get its own category as well. What is left over (the truly wierd stuff such as Ioun Stones) stays in Wondrous Item.
Craft Rod: Why does this category exist? It is a relic from previous editions. It contains a bizarre hodge-podge of sticl-like items that can be divvied up into other categories.
2) The skills system is too weak. It is a great idea but doesn't go far enough.
2a)There are too many static DCs. For example, the DC to disarm a trap should be set by the makers Craft(Trap) skill. That way it is not possible for rogues to know for certainty that their skill is good enough.
2b) Static DCs are too low. For example, the DC to make masterwork items is trivial. If the item is of such exceptional quality, why is it everyone and their brother with a tiny amount of skill can make one 1 time out of 20. Some skills have only static DCs that are so low that people can make the roll untrained. Why evern bother having such a skill in the game. It is a waste of points, which brings me to my last point about the skills system.
2c) Too few skill points across the board also designers were too stingy about putting skills in class.
Wizards in particular have too many skills in class and too few skill points to support them. 2+Int is ridiculously low. The only saving grace is that Wizards tend to have a high int.
Rogues despite their 8+Int also have too few points for so many in-class skills.
The fighter's skill list is criminally small and the fighter also has too few points to even thing about cross-classing. Apparently a decision was made somewhere in game design that all fighters should do is fight because they have neither the skills nor the points to do anything else.
Fighters who are supposed to be skilled in combat manouvers can't Tumble and apparently have no sense of Balance. They also apparently too stupid to figure out when someone is feinting them in combat (no Sense Motive in class) despite the fact that they should be the best at spotting feints in a fight. Combat is what they do (and based on both a lack of skills AND skill points fighting is all they CAN do) so they should at least be good at it. Oh! Did I forget to mention that the big, burly fighter who can cleave you in twain apparently isn't very Intimidating either.
2d)Lastly, the ability to make skill items with unbounded skill bonuses makes the skill system useless at mid to high levels (mainly due to the problem of so many low, static DCs.)
3) Get rid of or fix the "old-timer" spells that are still lurking around from 1e and 2e.
Heal/Harm (these have been argued to death so I won't re-start the argument here.)
All spells with unlimited range: Create an additional range type: Extra Long Range, with a standard range of say, 5miles/lvl. This way you can't teleport across the crystal sphere or scry onto different planets.
Death to all of the Shadow Magic spells: I HATE these spells. Either get rid of them or actually explain the limits on what they can do. They have been around forever and I have never seen an official explanation on how they work. What exactly does x% real mean? Does a shadow magic fire burn x% as fast, x%as much or x% of the time? How do these spells affect objects which have no ability to believe or disbelieve? If you use shadow magic fire how does it interact with a creature which is immune to fire since it isn't real fire. Does shadow magic fire burn underwater since it is only x% real, or does it only burn 100-x%.
Sorry about the rant. I love 3e, I really do. It is a beautiful system and it has far fewer problems than 2e had (and I won't even mention 1e), but these problems that remain continue to irritate me.
Tzarevitch
1) Separate the item creation feats a bit better.
Craft Wondrous Item is too broad. It is the uber item creation feat because under the rules you can use it to duplicate stuff from all of the other item creation feats except Arms and Armor.
Place all magical clothing into their own category (Weave Wondrous Clothing or something). Take anything that is fundamentally a dust or an ointment and put it under Brew Potion (i call this new category Magical Brew). Remove all magical jewlery and place it under Rings (new category= Craft Jewelry). Wondrous Architecture should get its own category as well. What is left over (the truly wierd stuff such as Ioun Stones) stays in Wondrous Item.
Craft Rod: Why does this category exist? It is a relic from previous editions. It contains a bizarre hodge-podge of sticl-like items that can be divvied up into other categories.
2) The skills system is too weak. It is a great idea but doesn't go far enough.
2a)There are too many static DCs. For example, the DC to disarm a trap should be set by the makers Craft(Trap) skill. That way it is not possible for rogues to know for certainty that their skill is good enough.
2b) Static DCs are too low. For example, the DC to make masterwork items is trivial. If the item is of such exceptional quality, why is it everyone and their brother with a tiny amount of skill can make one 1 time out of 20. Some skills have only static DCs that are so low that people can make the roll untrained. Why evern bother having such a skill in the game. It is a waste of points, which brings me to my last point about the skills system.
2c) Too few skill points across the board also designers were too stingy about putting skills in class.
Wizards in particular have too many skills in class and too few skill points to support them. 2+Int is ridiculously low. The only saving grace is that Wizards tend to have a high int.
Rogues despite their 8+Int also have too few points for so many in-class skills.
The fighter's skill list is criminally small and the fighter also has too few points to even thing about cross-classing. Apparently a decision was made somewhere in game design that all fighters should do is fight because they have neither the skills nor the points to do anything else.
Fighters who are supposed to be skilled in combat manouvers can't Tumble and apparently have no sense of Balance. They also apparently too stupid to figure out when someone is feinting them in combat (no Sense Motive in class) despite the fact that they should be the best at spotting feints in a fight. Combat is what they do (and based on both a lack of skills AND skill points fighting is all they CAN do) so they should at least be good at it. Oh! Did I forget to mention that the big, burly fighter who can cleave you in twain apparently isn't very Intimidating either.
2d)Lastly, the ability to make skill items with unbounded skill bonuses makes the skill system useless at mid to high levels (mainly due to the problem of so many low, static DCs.)
3) Get rid of or fix the "old-timer" spells that are still lurking around from 1e and 2e.
Heal/Harm (these have been argued to death so I won't re-start the argument here.)
All spells with unlimited range: Create an additional range type: Extra Long Range, with a standard range of say, 5miles/lvl. This way you can't teleport across the crystal sphere or scry onto different planets.
Death to all of the Shadow Magic spells: I HATE these spells. Either get rid of them or actually explain the limits on what they can do. They have been around forever and I have never seen an official explanation on how they work. What exactly does x% real mean? Does a shadow magic fire burn x% as fast, x%as much or x% of the time? How do these spells affect objects which have no ability to believe or disbelieve? If you use shadow magic fire how does it interact with a creature which is immune to fire since it isn't real fire. Does shadow magic fire burn underwater since it is only x% real, or does it only burn 100-x%.
Sorry about the rant. I love 3e, I really do. It is a beautiful system and it has far fewer problems than 2e had (and I won't even mention 1e), but these problems that remain continue to irritate me.
Tzarevitch
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