Banishing "Sacred Cows"

Joshua Dyal said:

If you don't like my assumptions, fine. But otherwise, I don't see what you've got against them.

I'm going to be long-winded here. Please bear with me.

I start with the note that we actually don't have a quote on Mr. Dancey saying that D&D vastly outsells other games. We both seem to remember such statements, but it is possible we've got it wrong. Specifcally, if the "vastly outsells" is not for the time around the 59%, this whole leg of discussion quickly becomes moot. I will, however, continue as if we are correct, as we both seem to remember it that way.

It isn't a matter of liking or disliking your assumption (though I strongly suspect it doesn't match reality). It's a matter of disliking what you are doing with that assumption. Quite simply, you are practicing very unsound reasoning. When you take into account that the conclusions you reach reflect upon the competence and/or integrity of an individual (Mr. Dancey), then perhaps you'll see how my statements are not at all "petty".

The proper procedure is to form an hypothosis (make an assumption), find relevant data, and use that data to test the assumption. The thing you should not do is form an hypothosis, find a piece of data that neither confirms nor denies the hypothosis, and use them in combination to interpret what another piece of data means, and continue on as if that interpretation were fact. Conclusions based upon unfounded assumptions are themselves unfounded. No matter how reasonable an assuption may seem to you (and, yours does not actually seem more reasonable than the alternative, to me), it is no substitute for fact.

You come to the conclusion that Mr. Dancey's statements (as we remember them) are inaccurate, for whatever reason (dreadful error in speech, incompetence, or lying are your basic options). Given that those statements have apparently stood for years without factual contradiction, I doubt this is a tenable position. Even if it were tenable, you should be reticent to choose among those basic options when your logic is based upon... well, on smoke. There's not a shred of actual evidence that the statement was incorrect.

Simply put - what's more likely: Mr. Dancey is correct, or your conclusion? My money is on Mr. Dancey.

I propose you turn around and use the proper procedure. You have a hypothosis - players of various RPGs all buy similar amounts of materials. Well, if we trust WotC and their representatives (give me a good reson why I shouldn't), then, 59% or more of gamers played D&D, and D&D vastly outsold the competition. The mere 18% lead in sales your assumption predicts is not "vast". Ergo, the assumption is likely faulty, which means that D&D players do in fact buy more books.

That's not at all impossible - D&D has more core rulebooks than other games. D&D has a reputation of attracting "powergamers", who are more likely to buy books for rules reference than a "story-immersion" gamer. D&D has as many if not more "splatbooks" than other games. D&D has a plethora of settings, where most games have one. Heck, the simple fact that D&D uses an elaborate "spellbook" section that players constantly reference may well add to sales.

Why the great resistance to the idea that the assumption was faulty? Is the thought so abhorrent that it must be denied?
 

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Joshua Dyal said:

[sigh] Have you read the thread? You start off by asking a question that is pointless. Nobody that I know of has advocated going to a "point-based, free-form RPG." Point-based is already an option for chargen (if not for advancement.)


Mind you, that's stretching the definition of "point buy" (as the term is being used in this thread) quite a bit....
 

I've already admitted my rationale isn't empirical. And since I'm not submitting this as a thesis for peer review in an academic journal, I think that's fine.

And I'm not questioning Mr. Dancey's honesty or his competence. Merely his interpretation of the data, which, of course, we outsiders don't have much info on. I don't believe my assumptions or "conclusions" if you want to call them that, are inconsistent with the data that he's shared with us so far. For example, he called the non-D&D portion of gamers insignificant. I certainly wouldn't call 40% insignificant (going on numbers you posted: I actually wouldn't have guessed it'd be that high.) But if, for whatever reason relative to his sales goals that is insignificant, then his strategy is fine. Of course, just because they add that kinda stuff doesn't mean they're going to get all GURPS/Storyteller/Other players to jump right on board, but when making an effort to reach out to them is so easy, ignoring them doesn't make sense to me.

Nor do I feel like what I advocated should have been seen by the D&D community as any kind of "attack" on the system, or call for changes. Therefore, the extremely defensive reaction I've recieved somewhat surprised me. All I'd like are more options, because I believe that a lot of gamers would use them, including many that still shy away from D&D because of the system structural issues. When asked where they could have fit in the DMG, I opined that the very long section on dungeon environments is likely very little-used, because those details aren't really relevant for most campaigns (and if they are, they're still more trouble than they're worth to actually use.)

I think that it's a rather unfortunate myopic trend amongst D&Ders to think that there aren't quite a few people who left the system because they didn't like it, or that they're buying capacity in the marketplace is insubstantial.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
For example, he called the non-D&D portion of gamers insignificant. I certainly wouldn't call 40% insignificant (going on numbers you posted: I actually wouldn't have guessed it'd be that high.) But if, for whatever reason relative to his sales goals that is insignificant, then his strategy is fine.

Just looking at this one point. That 40% is fragmented into dozens, if not hundreds of products, making each individual market (other than D&D) insignificant. If the market breaks down as
D&D 59%
WW 15%
GURPS 9%
RM 6%
All others combined 9%

Then everything after D&D IS insignificant. I think the references to that quote should probably be stopped. It is assuredly taken out of context, and I don't really think it's adding anything to the debate.

And if we can move off the whole feud thing for a moment and return to D&D weaknesses that actually need addressing, I'm nominating the magic item creation system. This is really a sacred cow that needs to go. The categories are only defined as they are because of previous editions, and it's pretty clear there needs to be a real fix.

I would have the various creation feat allow you to use skills to make items. So Brew Potion allows you to use the Alchemy skill to craft potions. It's more complicated, but I think it would work better. (Assuming someone actually made some rules. :) )

PS
 

Joshua Dyal said:
I think that it's a rather unfortunate myopic trend amongst D&Ders to think that there aren't quite a few people who left the system because they didn't like it, or that they're buying capacity in the marketplace is insubstantial.

Hmm. Okay, let's try a different direction here... Why is this myopia "unfortunate"? What undesireable effects does it have?

Or, perhaps put another way - Why should we, here on these boards, care if lots of people left the game years ago?
 

Storminator said:
And if we can move off the whole feud thing for a moment and return to D&D weaknesses that actually need addressing, I'm nominating the magic item creation system. This is really a sacred cow that needs to go. The categories are only defined as they are because of previous editions, and it's pretty clear there needs to be a real fix.

I would have the various creation feat allow you to use skills to make items. So Brew Potion allows you to use the Alchemy skill to craft potions. It's more complicated, but I think it would work better. (Assuming someone actually made some rules. :) )

I don't think the item creation system qualifies as a Sacred Cow. It's new in 3e, replacing the absolutely terrible and barely-defined item creation system in 2e and earlier. It might need some revision for a 3.1e or a 4e, but it's hardly a sacred cow.
 

drothgery said:


I don't think the item creation system qualifies as a Sacred Cow. It's new in 3e, replacing the absolutely terrible and barely-defined item creation system in 2e and earlier. It might need some revision for a 3.1e or a 4e, but it's hardly a sacred cow.

But the breakdown of item categories is. And the way that effected the new rules is unfortunate. Anyone in your games make rings? Or rods?

The whole system needs shaking up.

PS
 

Storminator said:


But the breakdown of item categories is. And the way that effected the new rules is unfortunate. Anyone in your games make rings? Or rods?

The whole system needs shaking up.

PS

That not my problem, my problem is getting anyone to make anything at all! They don't even know the item creation rules barely. I'll roll back the amount of items they get (i'm not exactly monty haul to begin with) and they just don't care. Even their CHARACTERS are lazy!! :p
 

Skoal said:
The game is called Dungeons and Dragons. This reminds me of a campaign few years ago. After everyone in the party had reached around 7th level, we complained to the Dm, "The game is called Dungeons and Dragons. However, in the 3 months we've been playing, there hasn't been a dungeon or a dragon. What's going on here."

You fancy people stick to the surface, I'll be sticking to the dungeon--kicking in doors and grabbing loot--all the while searching for that elusive dragon.

ps. I like my beer cold, steak rare, and hit-points high.

Sir, you have my salute! I agree with everything you have just said. Especially the steak and the beer :D.

Rav
 

Tiberius said:


Now you have, after a fashion. I dropped AD&D altogether over my disgust with the changes made in 2E, especially the baatezu/tanar'ri thing, the alterations to the planes, removal of the monk and assassin, and the emphasis on the "evil must always lose" line of thought. I then picked up the White Wolf games, and played them exclusively for years.

I ordered the 3E PHB on a lark two years ago to give D&D one final chance to redeem itself. It exceeded all my expectations, so here I am back in the fold two years later. :)

-Tiberius

Make that two of us then.

I stopped playing D&D by choice back with 1e! Now I played a little 2e but once I discovered GURPS I was hooked.

I still love GURPS but D&D3e is a very good system.

Now my house D20 game is basically a mix of

Grim N Gritty

Spycraft Action Points

3e tower

Swashbuckling Adventures

Sovereign Stone

and a custom Mana point system (under reconstruction)

It works for me---

Despite my preference for a custom game I can't say the core rules are broken --- and I wouldn't call my game D&D because it isn't.

D&D is class/level/ablative HP/armor to hit and maybe Vancian magic.

Everything else is D20
 

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