Pathfinder 1E Barbarian Rage Power 'Superstition' vs Domain Power

[SmuggleNutz]

Arrggg... Now the DM has ruled that since Touch of Good is a Spell-like Ability, it works like a Spell, and Superstition allows a Save against it... I have argued that there are spells that allow saves and there are those that aren't, and asked why is Touch of Good being treated as either. The argument keeps going back to Spells being the same as Spell-like Abilities. I feel like I am beating my head against a shield... of Force...

 

[N'raac]

Not seeing it. I look to the ability (must make all allowed saving throws), at Touch of Good (no mention of saving throws), at Cure Light Wounds (saving throw exists) and at Scorching Ray (no saving throw).

If the Barbarian's Superstition adds a save to Touch of Good, then should it not also add a save to Scorching Ray, Magic Missile, etc.?

 

[SmuggleNutz]

That is one of the points I have been arguing, as well as asking what rule is being used as the basis for this, and I get this back:

However, I am saying that Touch of Good (and any spell-like ability from class abilities that is cast on allies for the purposes of Superstition Ex) is going to get a save because it is Rules As Written. There are no rules that have changed.

And..

There is no location that I am aware in the CRB or SRD where those words are used specifically. As GM I am simply adjudicating the rules as written and attempting to explain them to the best of my ability.

And now supposedly the decision has been made and further discussion is not allowed. I think the decision applies only to the Touch of Good Domain Ability, but I am not even sure on that part. As near as I can tell, "Spell-like Abilities" are being equated with spells as far as a Save being allowed, and Superstition is being interpreted as allowing a save while it is in effect (which is any time the Barbarian uses Rage). I am just shaking my head, as this DM has proven to be fair and knowledgable in all other cases.

I am beginning to think this is a case of not wanting to be shown as wrong.

 

[N'raac]

So would he get a save against the beneficial effects of a prayer spell? And if so, would he then get a save against the detrimental effects of a prayer spell cast by an enemy?

To me, stating this is Rules as Written mandates citing the written rule. Especially when no one else can seem to find it.

 

[SmuggleNutz]

So would he get a save against the beneficial effects of a prayer spell? And if so, would he then get a save against the detrimental effects of a prayer spell cast by an enemy?

At this point, I am not entirely sure... It seems like Touch of Good is being treated like a spell that allows a Save. Why that is so, has not been explained other than as an "interpretation of the rules."

To me, stating this is Rules as Written mandates citing the written rule. Especially when no one else can seem to find it.

Me too... Also, seeing as how this can be an incredible boon for a character, I would also expect a significant amount of online chatter about it, which there is not.

 

[SmuggleNutz]

Ok, here is a similar question. The Air Domain bestows the Lightning Arc domain power and tags it as a (Sp), Spell-like ability. The description of the domain power does not state that any save is allowed.​

There is also the spell, Lightning Arc, which has a Reflex save for 1/2.

Due to the Domain Power being a Spell-like Ability, does it allow a save the same as the spell of the same name? Or do you go by the Domain Power description as written?

Note that Domain Powers are written such that some describe how to save against them and some don't.

 

[SmuggleNutz]

After further discussion, it seems that the argument being used is the following:

Touch of Good, as a Spell-like Ability, functions as a spell. Superstition forces somone under its effects to attept to save against any spell. Therefore, a save is calculated using the normal formula: 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.
​

This comes from the following line in the definition of Spell-like Ability:

In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.​

I haven't got an answer yet on what Save to use between Fort, Ref, and Will...

 

[Traveon Wyvernspur]

After further discussion, it seems that the argument being used is the following:

Touch of Good, as a Spell-like Ability, functions as a spell. Superstition forces somone under its effects to attept to save against any spell. Therefore, a save is calculated using the normal formula: 10 + 1/2 the character’s cleric level + her Wisdom modifier.
​

This comes from the following line in the definition of Spell-like Ability:

In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.​

I haven't got an answer yet on what Save to use between Fort, Ref, and Will...

I'd be willing to bet it's a WILL save, that would make the most sense in this case.

 

[SmuggleNutz]

Well, yea, probably a Will save.. But is that a common interpretation of Touch of Good? To say that just because it's a Spell-like Ability, it allows a Save? The way Domain Powers are written, some specify a save and some don't. Touch of Good does not, and there is no spell named "Touch of Good" to compare it to anyway.

 

[N'raac]

Given that some spells allow a save and others don't, it seems reasonable that some spell-like abilities allow a save and others don't. Cure spells allow a save (harmless), while Bless and Prayer allow no save so, like it or not, you get the bonus.

Adding "Will Save (Harmless)" to Touch of Good is a rule change, not an interpretation, from where I sit. It actually seems inconsistent as the bonus-granting spells do not allow saves.