Bard thoughts...Arcane/Leader and How it might work.

[Reaper Steve]

Gah, that was fast!

One-stop shopping at wikipedia.org! As the guy on The Office said, what could possibly be a more accurate reference than one that can be freely edited by the populace at large?
Anyway, it had enough to make me feel comfortable that my image of a Bard as a singer and teller of tales, NOT a mover and shaker, is consistent with the popular use of the name.

If I had it my way, I wouldn't make the Bard a leader either. I'm just throwing up the above idea because wizards has already said they were going to make him a leader. I like Controller Bards better.

Agreed.
Arcane Leader - cool (with lots of potential, I think)
Bard (as a singer w/ powers) - could be done, but needs careful attention
Arcane Leader does not equal Bard

 

[Mad Mac]

The Widpedia entry was interesting, but I'm baffled that they don't mention the connection to Druids. It seems to deal almost exclusively with Bards from about the 12th century on, which isn't where you're getting the more mythy stuff.

Trying to find a good page that deals with this aspect...this is the best I've found so far, although it's just an overview.

http://www.heartoscotland.com/Categories/CelticMythology.htm

Edit. Ah, much better.

http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/bards.html

Essentially, mythic bards overlap a lot with Druids. Controlling weather, shapechanging, ect. But you also get examples of satire so biting it's functionally a curse, and the main thread that unites them is wisdom and prophetic insight. Bards were the caste of Druids required to memorize all the history and genealogy and so forth, so they naturally get considered the guys that know everything.

There are of course, similar mythological figures who aren't celtic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus

 

[Mostlyjoe]

Okay. What role would you put the Bard into. Controller?

Wouldn't he then be stepping on the toes of a Wizard who uses Enhancement/Illusion already?

I was thinking in terms of party buff based on Arcane magic source. Previously the Bard has filled a role like this. Now, I'd admit a (Skald I think is the word your looking for.) classical Bard might not fit this image, but how would you break it down?

 

[Reaper Steve]

Okay. What role would you put the Bard into. Controller?

That's just it...I wouldn't.
'Bard' doesn't need to be a class and any attempts to make one so far have been forced IMO.

Will there be a 4E Bard? I'm sure of it. But I think it will probably be forced as well. A singer/poet/historian/skald just doesn't require a heroic class. It's an NPC with Perform and History. But I don't see the design team ever saying 'yeah, that never worked right, so we won't try to make one in 4E.'

But I fear they will force the issue and make Bard an arcane leader. And as I said previously, I think 'arcane leader' has great potential that a Bard would not maximize.

 

[Mostlyjoe]

What kinda of Arcane Leader would you build?

 

[Reaper Steve]

What kinda of Arcane Leader would you build?

I've been thinking about that.
Something like a dwarf runelord is the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah, I'm tying it to a specific race, but that's the image I have.

Since the arcane defender (the swordmage) will use arcane power to go toe to toe, a acrane leader must use arcane power to lead. (Obvious!) Point is, a buffer/debuffer could be an arcane leader. I just need to think of the right flavor sprinkles.

Edit: arcane leader would be the arcane counterpart to a cleric.
So where does that get me? back to the drawing board!

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

What other roles/abilities can a Bard offer a group that doesn't steal the fire from the other 2 leader types?

That's easy... they allow free access to sex-crazed groupies. Party like a rock-star!

 

[DreamChaser]

True enough. The role are very combat oriented. By the same logic the Bard could be a Controller.

But my logic is

Leader = Buff/Enhancement powers

Controller = DeBuff/Movement powers

So, I'm thinking maybe the Bard could use a lot of Power Up type tricks. Defence, etc.

No...that is not how I see it. I controller as manipulating (controlling) the battlefield, which can be accomplished in a number of ways:

** artillery strikes ("fireball" like area attacks)
** debuff (weakening the opponent)
** summoning (adding combatants)
** charm / compulsion (literal control of creatures)
** transmutation (literal control of the environment)

a leader enhances the ability of others to keep doing what they do best and coordinates their efforts to enhanced effect.

** buffs (enhancements / enchantments)
** resilience (through DR, healing, or temp hit points)
** tactical movement (speeding good guys up / teleporting them around)
** defense (AC, illusion, spell immunity)

An arcane leader should have some ability to absorb / manipulate the magic of others to protect or support the party. she should be akin to the spellthief only more self sufficient and team oriented. able to transfer power to others to use, join with other arcane classes to increase their abilities, create magical weapons, and use the enemy's magical powers against him / her. think spellthief meets hexblade meets bard meets artificer

DC

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I actually like bards as a class, and I'm 90% sure they're going to be an arcane-leader class.

The bard will probably have some sort of continous/maintained aura power that buffs or debuffs those around them. If wizards get 25th level spells, bards might too. But I picture them being a versatile class still, and they may get some powers that closely resemble martial powers. It's possible they'll also get different "schools" much like how wizards get different traditions.

 

[Imperialus]

I'd really like to see the bard take on a role more along either the traditional Celtic Bard or a Norse Skalad. That's one of my favorite parts of C&C is the role played by the bard. We often forget the importance that music has always played in warfare, storytelling, and other aspects of human society. It was so powerful that it still permiates our society in ways that we rarely even see.

For example, I'm listening to the Dropkick Murphy's new CD. I'm sure we all know the kids song "The Ants go Marching". It's actually called "Johnny I Hardly Knew You", a traditional Irish song that was orriginally written during Cromwell's conquest of the island. That means that this song (if not the lyrics) has survived for over 300 years. That's not chump change.

All they have to do is ditch the cheesy Walter Scott Minstral crap and turn bards into baddasses. These are the guys who go in front of the lines, and flash their kilt at the enemy while playing the pipes, they are the vikings that wrote the Norse Saga's. These are the guys who fought next to Acillies and decided to write things down, I mean if you belive the Bible, bards brought down Jericoh with their trumpets. That's insane, over the top, and quite possibly one of the coolest things ever.