D&D 5E Bards have an identity problem!

That stems from historical roles where bards held military rank and were expected to act as scouts and soldiers if needed.
On the other hand, we have the actual AD&D Player's Handbook 2nd Edition saying that inspirations for the Bard specifically included some of Robin Hood's merry men, which would certainly explain why they specifically had an element of fighting and roguishness to them and is more likely to be a source people would have referenced then obscure information about historic Celtic bards. Which surviving historic primary source on Celtic bards said they held military rank and were expected to fight as soldiers? I'm rather curious, since so little has survived about them in terms of credible academic sources.

Tolkien based Gandalf on a mythological bard, chose to call him a wizard, readers bought into it, and we're seeing the influence of that choice.
I believe "citation needed" is the proper response to this. There's a TON of scholarly works analyzing Tolkien's works. Which reputable works actually says he based Gandalf specifically on Celtic bards?
 

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Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
I believe "citation needed" is the proper response to this. There's a TON of scholarly works analyzing Tolkien's works. Which reputable works actually says he based Gandalf specifically on Celtic bards?

Gandalf-Citation.png


[citation offered]

Gandalf is based very much on the O∂innic wanderer, by Tolkien's own admission, which is not really connected closely with Celtic Bards. Skald, I could see - Warrior-Poets. But O∂in is more than a poetic magician, he's a god of death, a god of the crossroads, of battle and wisdom and full of contradictions.

O∂in was also known as the Lord of the Ring - the Ring of the Nibelungs from whence came Tolkien's magic ring - and I've seen some pretty darn good arguments to say that Tolkien split O∂in's complex character in half (or thirds, perhaps), giving us Gandalf and Sauron (and perhaps also Saruman), to align with his more clear-cut binary morality politic in the tales.
 
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View attachment 125984

[citation offered]

Gandalf is based very much on the O∂innic wanderer, by Tolkien's own admission, which is not really connected closely with Celtic Bards. Skald, I could see - Warrior-Poets. But O∂in is more than a poetic magician, he's a god of death, a god of the crossroads, of battle and wisdom and full of contradictions.

O∂in was also known as the Lord of the Ring - the Ring of the Nibelungs from whence came Tolkien's magic ring - and I've seen some pretty darn good arguments to say that Tolkien split O∂in's complex character in half (or thirds, perhaps), giving us Gandalf and Sauron (and perhaps also Saruman), to align with his more clear-cut binary morality politic in the tales.

So, nothing saying Gandalf was inspired by Celtic Bards, which was Ashyrm's claim.

We have Tolkien saying that he was inspired by a painting of a figure known as Der Berggeist the (translated) Mountain Spirit, by a 19th century German painter, of an old man with a large cloak and big hat in a mountain grove seated while petting a lamb. Certainly it can be seen as the source for Gandalf's appearance.

Tolkien did clearly draw on many influences from northern and western European folklore and myths in creating his works, but the evidence saying that Celtic Bards were specifically an inspiration for Gandalf are lacking.
 

Ashrym

Legend
Could you please cite your sources of mythology with epic magic battles of bards and druids?

Also i do not believe that d&d bard is based mainly on Celtic RL models.
Check out Jack Vances Dying Earth, one of the short stories features a bard.

The medieval minstrel also comes to my mind , not much Celtic about that one is it?

I believe you got profound knowledge on Celtic history, but your take on the d&d bard is to narrow imho.

edit: With your definition the swashbuckling troubadour wielding rapier and dagger would make no sense at all, leading to an identity problem indeed.
All your model does explain, is why a bard should have full access to spellcasting, all other aspects are not covered by the celtic bard.

Amergin against the druids of the Tuatha de Danann during the Milesian invasion is the first example of bard vs druid that comes to mind. Taliesin rescuing Elphin from Maelgwn was a good example of using magic. Manawyddan in the court of Caswallon as portrayed in The Song of Rhiannon is another good example of a powerful magician in a bard (that one is Welsh based).

Taliesin was the bard in Arthur's court until replaced later legends with Merlin, who was based on Myrrdin, and fulfilled the seer / prophet role.

The original bard was based on Celtic mythology and history (hence the jack-of-all-trades aspect and magical nature) with the fili as stated, but also with influence from the skald and jongleur. When Gygax changed that to the 1e appendix option it was because of fighting and skill aspects of a bard, and also because in mythology the Celtic bards learned magic from the druids (sidenote: other sources have claimed bards first taught magic to druids and then druids retaught it to bards who had forgotten). When Jeff Goelz remade the bard in Dragon Magazine 56 it was specifically influenced on Manawyddan as stated in the article.

The fili/skald/jongleur was clearly stated in the Strategic Review article introducing the class, with similar statements in future editions.

1599800293186.png


Where I think you misinterpreted what I said is when I claimed the main influence was the fili that I was excluding other inspirations. The class evolved over time and 5e is meant to allow various archetypes under one similar class. At least that was one of the statements during the open beta testing. We aren't playing "Dying Earth the RPG" but that doesn't mean a player cannot take inspiration from them to build the character. I know many players who follow the jongleur concept, for example. This is from 2e:

"In precise historical terms, the title “bard” applies only to certain groups of Celtic poets who sang the history of their tribes in long, recitative poems. These bards, found mainly in Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, filled many important roles in their society. They were storehouses of tribal history, reporters of news, messengers, and even ambassadors to other tribes. However, in the AD&D game, the bard is a more generalized character. Historical and legendary examples of the type include Alan-a-Dale, Will Scarlet, Amergin, and even Homer. Indeed, every culture has its storyteller or poet, whether he is called bard, skald, fili, jongleur, or something else."

It still stresses the typical versions. I can make a biwa hoshi bard if I wanted to now. That doesn't change the roots of the inspiration for the class. This is from XGtE:

1599801537077.png


And this is from the 5e PHB:

1599802170291.png


That scholarly fili is still there showing it's roots. Same as the skald. What's missing is the jongleur, specifically called out as "not every minstrel or jongleur..." is a bard. The only identity crisis is with players denying what bards actually were in favor of other pop culture tropes. Claiming the medieval minstrel comes to mind is the opposite of what is stated. At no point has the bard ever been stated to be based on a gigolo that I know of, lol. That's more of the pop culture style. Playing A Bard's Tale springs to mind for that one. I

Considering I was defending bards as full casters (because caster level was the previous indicator instead of max spell level, among other things) then I think you acknowledging such in my model is actually a "proof is in the pudding" moment. ;-)

I'll also point to Vanya Hargreeves for the "music is magic" trope. Destroying the moon and creating an extinction level event seems appropriate.

The bottom line is the current incarnation matches up to the original inspirations better than past versions.

It feels like the OED should fix that if there's backing for it. Anyone have some favorite early quotes about "Bard" in general to go with that to start badgering the OED folks with?

The strategic review articles quoted above, 2e PHB quote, and Dragon article should give some. A person could probably dig more up. Praise poetry, chronicling events, and oral tradition is typical of the role.

On the other hand, we have the actual AD&D Player's Handbook 2nd Edition saying that inspirations for the Bard specifically included some of Robin Hood's merry men, which would certainly explain why they specifically had an element of fighting and roguishness to them and is more likely to be a source people would have referenced then obscure information about historic Celtic bards. Which surviving historic primary source on Celtic bards said they held military rank and were expected to fight as soldiers? I'm rather curious, since so little has survived about them in terms of credible academic sources.


I believe "citation needed" is the proper response to this. There's a TON of scholarly works analyzing Tolkien's works. Which reputable works actually says he based Gandalf specifically on Celtic bards?

So, nothing saying Gandalf was inspired by Celtic Bards, which was Ashyrm's claim.

We have Tolkien saying that he was inspired by a painting of a figure known as Der Berggeist the (translated) Mountain Spirit, by a 19th century German painter, of an old man with a large cloak and big hat in a mountain grove seated while petting a lamb. Certainly it can be seen as the source for Gandalf's appearance.

Tolkien did clearly draw on many influences from northern and western European folklore and myths in creating his works, but the evidence saying that Celtic Bards were specifically an inspiration for Gandalf are lacking.

I didn't say Celtic bard in regard to Gandalf. I said bard. One source is listed above. Another inspiration is Väinämöinen from the Kalevala.

Snodgrass, Ellen (2009). Encyclopedia of the Literature of Empire. Infobase Publishing. pp. 161–162. ISBN 9781438119069.

A lot of Tolkien's characters took inspiration from bard or bard equivalents. Väinämöinen had similarities to Odin and Merlin, and he would also use his songs and music for magic.

As for literature on the bards' roles, I'll refer you to:

1599805935832.png


It's written by D.W. Nash and stamped by the University of Oxford November 7, 1939 -- it has the citations you are requesting to validate my claims. The real question I would ask is what counter evidence have you offered? ;-)
 

Coroc

Hero
Amergin against the druids of the Tuatha de Danann during the Milesian invasion is the first example of bard vs druid that comes to mind. Taliesin rescuing Elphin from Maelgwn was a good example of using magic. Manawyddan in the court of Caswallon as portrayed in The Song of Rhiannon is another good example of a powerful magician in a bard (that one is Welsh based).

Taliesin was the bard in Arthur's court until replaced later legends with Merlin, who was based on Myrrdin, and fulfilled the seer / prophet role.

The original bard was based on Celtic mythology and history (hence the jack-of-all-trades aspect and magical nature) with the fili as stated, but also with influence from the skald and jongleur. When Gygax changed that to the 1e appendix option it was because of fighting and skill aspects of a bard, and also because in mythology the Celtic bards learned magic from the druids (sidenote: other sources have claimed bards first taught magic to druids and then druids retaught it to bards who had forgotten). When Jeff Goelz remade the bard in Dragon Magazine 56 it was specifically influenced on Manawyddan as stated in the article.

The fili/skald/jongleur was clearly stated in the Strategic Review article introducing the class, with similar statements in future editions.

View attachment 126056

Where I think you misinterpreted what I said is when I claimed the main influence was the fili that I was excluding other inspirations. The class evolved over time and 5e is meant to allow various archetypes under one similar class. At least that was one of the statements during the open beta testing. We aren't playing "Dying Earth the RPG" but that doesn't mean a player cannot take inspiration from them to build the character. I know many players who follow the jongleur concept, for example. This is from 2e:

"In precise historical terms, the title “bard” applies only to certain groups of Celtic poets who sang the history of their tribes in long, recitative poems. These bards, found mainly in Ireland, Wales, and Scotland, filled many important roles in their society. They were storehouses of tribal history, reporters of news, messengers, and even ambassadors to other tribes. However, in the AD&D game, the bard is a more generalized character. Historical and legendary examples of the type include Alan-a-Dale, Will Scarlet, Amergin, and even Homer. Indeed, every culture has its storyteller or poet, whether he is called bard, skald, fili, jongleur, or something else."

It still stresses the typical versions. I can make a biwa hoshi bard if I wanted to now. That doesn't change the roots of the inspiration for the class. This is from XGtE:

View attachment 126057

And this is from the 5e PHB:

View attachment 126058

That scholarly fili is still there showing it's roots. Same as the skald. What's missing is the jongleur, specifically called out as "not every minstrel or jongleur..." is a bard. The only identity crisis is with players denying what bards actually were in favor of other pop culture tropes. Claiming the medieval minstrel comes to mind is the opposite of what is stated. At no point has the bard ever been stated to be based on a gigolo that I know of, lol. That's more of the pop culture style. Playing A Bard's Tale springs to mind for that one. I

Considering I was defending bards as full casters (because caster level was the previous indicator instead of max spell level, among other things) then I think you acknowledging such in my model is actually a "proof is in the pudding" moment. ;-)

I'll also point to Vanya Hargreeves for the "music is magic" trope. Destroying the moon and creating an extinction level event seems appropriate.

The bottom line is the current incarnation matches up to the original inspirations better than past versions.



The strategic review articles quoted above, 2e PHB quote, and Dragon article should give some. A person could probably dig more up. Praise poetry, chronicling events, and oral tradition is typical of the role.





I didn't say Celtic bard in regard to Gandalf. I said bard. One source is listed above. Another inspiration is Väinämöinen from the Kalevala.

Snodgrass, Ellen (2009). Encyclopedia of the Literature of Empire. Infobase Publishing. pp. 161–162. ISBN 9781438119069.

A lot of Tolkien's characters took inspiration from bard or bard equivalents. Väinämöinen had similarities to Odin and Merlin, and he would also use his songs and music for magic.

As for literature on the bards' roles, I'll refer you to:

View attachment 126059

It's written by D.W. Nash and stamped by the University of Oxford November 7, 1939 -- it has the citations you are requesting to validate my claims. The real question I would ask is what counter evidence have you offered? ;-)
thanks for clarifying your point, the medieval Minnesaenger was a kind of gigolo, although not in a physical love sense, but rather an idealized way, often "courting" married women, which would have led to big trouble back then, if it were the "real thing"
Walter von der Vogelweide is the best example for this.
 

Ashrym

Legend
thanks for clarifying your point, the medieval Minnesaenger was a kind of gigolo, although not in a physical love sense, but rather an idealized way, often "courting" married women, which would have led to big trouble back then, if it were the "real thing"
Walter von der Vogelweide is the best example for this.

What makes him a bard instead on an entertainer? We're back at "musician does not equal bard" just because bards play music.

A person can use him for personality traits as a bard but there's still no class design drawing from it.
 

thanks for clarifying your point, the medieval Minnesaenger was a kind of gigolo, although not in a physical love sense, but rather an idealized way, often "courting" married women, which would have led to big trouble back then, if it were the "real thing"
Walter von der Vogelweide is the best example for this.

So what you're saying is this washed-up, codpiece-wearing Russian singer is the ideal bard:

 
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although this guy is pretty ridiculous in a funny way, i do not get in the slightest way, what he has to do with my post. Is his name Walter in Russian eventually?


The description of "a kind of gigolo, although not in a physical love sense, but rather an idealized way, often "courting" married women, which would have led to big trouble back then, if it were the "real thing" is a pretty good description of the song.
 

Ashrym

Legend
I don't think "kind of a gigolo" is the right way to put it anyway. It was a the same tradition of minstrels and troubadours writing love poetry. Writing love songs isn't what makes a bard a bard. Writing love songs is a form of entertainment.

I would be more inclined to consider Walter von der Vogelweide a bard based on other works. Praise, satire, and moralizing in the political works fits the bard concept better.
 

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