D&D 5E Bards: How did these become a thing?

Erik42

First Post
I was heavily influenced by Lloyd Alexander's books when I was a kid, and Fflewdder Flam was a favorite. Two other things came to mind while reading this thread, one from literature - Piers Anthony's Being a Green Mother featured the Llano, a song of such power that the smallest part of it could effect great change in the world, with Mother Nature portrayed as a musician who used the song to create all kinds of magical effects. The other thing that came to mind were Klingons - a race of warriors who actually sometimes do sing in combat to bolster the morale of their fellow warriors.
 

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Herobizkit

Adventurer
For me, Bards use skills and words as their blades and spells. They're you're people people that, honestly, no other class really does well without specific design towards that end.

They're your social butterfly at every party, always the centre of attention. Warriors speak of their battles, mages speak of their research, clerics speak of their healing miracles and rogues speak of whatever jobs they've been doing - the Bard takes all of this knowledge and applies it to his own talents, making him a jack-of-all-trades with a huge repository of Lore.

Yes, they are modeled after the story-tellers of pre-writing, specifically Celtic, but as D&D evolved, Bard has grown to accommodate most tropes that include warrior-poets, detectives, and all sorts of entertainers.

In many ways, Bards can be "module-busters". Most pre-gen adventures are littered with Int/Lore checks and role-playing solutions as a means of avoiding straight-up combat; Bards seem to be tailor-made for such encounters. They're great for shoring up a group's "missing" class or an excellent supporting/"fifth wheel" to an already solid group make-up.

Bards don't even have to be music-focused. Take these examples from 3e's Perform specializations:

d20srd.org said:
  • Act (comedy, drama, mime)
  • Comedy (buffoonery, limericks, joke-telling)
  • Dance (ballet, waltz, jig)
  • Keyboard instruments (harpsichord, piano, pipe organ)
  • Oratory (epic, ode, storytelling)
  • Percussion instruments (bells, chimes, drums, gong)
  • String instruments (fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin)
  • Wind instruments (flute, pan pipes, recorder, shawm, trumpet)
  • Sing (ballad, chant, melody)
There are lots of options available for an inventive Bard's performance. Combine these concepts with 2e's Bard's Handbook or Pathfinder's Bard Archetypes and you can have far more depth "the guy who sings at his enemies".

Did I mention that I'm a Bard player since 2e?
Did I mention that Half-Elf Bard/X was often my favorite multi-class?
Did I mention that 5e's Bard has finally given Bard the spotlight it's deserved?

BARDS!

(They make great cheerleaders, too.)
 

For me, Bards use skills and words as their blades and spells. They're you're people people that, honestly, no other class really does well without specific design towards that end.

They're your social butterfly at every party, always the centre of attention. Warriors speak of their battles, mages speak of their research, clerics speak of their healing miracles and rogues speak of whatever jobs they've been doing - the Bard takes all of this knowledge and applies it to his own talents, making him a jack-of-all-trades with a huge repository of Lore.

Yes, they are modeled after the story-tellers of pre-writing, specifically Celtic, but as D&D evolved, Bard has grown to accommodate most tropes that include warrior-poets, detectives, and all sorts of entertainers.

In many ways, Bards can be "module-busters". Most pre-gen adventures are littered with Int/Lore checks and role-playing solutions as a means of avoiding straight-up combat; Bards seem to be tailor-made for such encounters. They're great for shoring up a group's "missing" class or an excellent supporting/"fifth wheel" to an already solid group make-up.

Bards don't even have to be music-focused. Take these examples from 3e's Perform specializations:

There are lots of options available for an inventive Bard's performance. Combine these concepts with 2e's Bard's Handbook or Pathfinder's Bard Archetypes and you can have far more depth "the guy who sings at his enemies".

Did I mention that I'm a Bard player since 2e?
Did I mention that Half-Elf Bard/X was often my favorite multi-class?
Did I mention that 5e's Bard has finally given Bard the spotlight it's deserved?

BARDS!

(They make great cheerleaders, too.)


Yeah, one of my favourite characters (and I have only a handful, usually the DM) was a 2nd Half-Elf Bard (Rawun kit) in an Al-Qadim campaign, he was more like a vizier (and oration was his thing).
 


Sadrik

First Post
If historical bards were historians, and gathered tales and recanted them so that human existence had a sense of place and history because of rampant illiteracy. I can see how commoners would be mesmerized by this and think that it was almost magical that they had such deep knowledge about their past. D&D does not have this problem. Knowledge is common, literacy is common, and written materials are common. The niche the bard had in historical precedent is not the niche they have in D&D. The niche created was one where music was the magic and the historian part was set aside and made a minor feature. I think the better way to make the bard is to pull the class back even further and make them just a jack of all trades. Make them the ultimate dabbler, go back to their knowledge roots. In 5e with backgrounds, allow the entertainer background to define the entertainer stuff, and allow other backgrounds to define them. Basically shave off the entertainer bit. Leave the other stuff. In this way you have a class that can be all things to all people. Entertainer can be there for people who want it and non-entertainer can be there for those who want it.

I also, was influenced as a kid with Lloyd Alexander's books. I think he was awesome. However, he had talents for entertaining, I don't think this was his "class". This goes to my design choice and I think fewer classes with broad arrays of options is better than lots of classes with fewer options. Why cant a CHA rogue be a bard, why can't a sorcerer specialize in song magic? And then there are multiclassing... what! That is crazy! :)
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Sardik said:
D&D does not have this problem. Knowledge is common, literacy is common, and written materials are common. The niche the bard had in historical precedent is not the niche they have in D&D.

I'd say this depends a lot on the setting. Most *adventurers* tend to be literate, just 'cuz its easier to play, but saying that a thing that is common in adventuring parties is common in all people is like saying every turnip farmer or ore-hauler has a magic sword sitting around their office. ;)

Even a "modern" setting like Eberron can have a significantly illiterate populace - there's no such thing as tax-funded public schools or education programs, so by and large there's no one to teach the illiterate son of the illiterate tailor how to read things. This isn't unlike most of 20th-Century America, and is still a lot like more economically remote places today.

In a setting with rampant literacy, there are probably more Orc bards or more Outlander bards than there are bards from the civilized lands, but there are plenty of societies in the real world that do this day rely on language and memory and storytelling over literacy and writing for their honored traditions, so I think saying this niche does not exist would be a little...suspension-of-disbelief-breaking for me.
 
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Ashrym

Legend
If historical bards were historians, and gathered tales and recanted them so that human existence had a sense of place and history because of rampant illiteracy. I can see how commoners would be mesmerized by this and think that it was almost magical that they had such deep knowledge about their past. D&D does not have this problem. Knowledge is common, literacy is common, and written materials are common. The niche the bard had in historical precedent is not the niche they have in D&D. The niche created was one where music was the magic and the historian part was set aside and made a minor feature. I think the better way to make the bard is to pull the class back even further and make them just a jack of all trades. Make them the ultimate dabbler, go back to their knowledge roots. In 5e with backgrounds, allow the entertainer background to define the entertainer stuff, and allow other backgrounds to define them. Basically shave off the entertainer bit. Leave the other stuff. In this way you have a class that can be all things to all people. Entertainer can be there for people who want it and non-entertainer can be there for those who want it.

I also, was influenced as a kid with Lloyd Alexander's books. I think he was awesome. However, he had talents for entertaining, I don't think this was his "class". This goes to my design choice and I think fewer classes with broad arrays of options is better than lots of classes with fewer options. Why cant a CHA rogue be a bard, why can't a sorcerer specialize in song magic? And then there are multiclassing... what! That is crazy! :)

Historical bards were prophets, magicians, healers, historians, genealogists, eulogizers (which originally included a prediction on the successors of the deceased), teachers, advisors, diplomats, lawyers, judges, and more. They were the scholars of the time and could be called on for a wide variety of duties by their patrons.

Like I mentioned earlier, libraries of books don't move and mass media did not exist even after literature became more prominent. The ability to write and read a book didn't get a book written and circulated in any timely fashion and bards added heralds and messengers to major duties. Bards were the newspaper reporters, television, and Internet of the time as well. News travelled with the bard from one town to the next after books were used more.

It's not like lawyers and judges to sit in court reading precedents from books. A lot of those are referenced outside of court or committed to memory while discussion takes place in court. A bard in a similar role would follow customary law for debate, advice, or rulings in similar fashion. The existence of books doesn't actually preclude any need for skilled memory or memorized knowledge; it only eases the need while the skill continues to be useful.

As for entertainers, bards could and would provide entertainment. They had the knowledge and skills, and one of the key attributes of the bard was the ability to evoke emotional responses.

Keeping that in mind, it wasn't the main purpose of learning poetry. Poetry was used as a mnemonic enhancer to help remember information. Stories were used to teach history and teach "the moral of the story" by parable. A bard would recite what people needed to hear and not necessarily what they wanted to hear in order to maintain custom and help advise. Entertainment was an ability but buts were far more than entertainers.

It's easy enough to make that archetype in 5e. It's my favourite and I will take a sage background, expertise in history, persuasion, investigation, and insight to match the concept. There's no need to bake the historian into the class more than proficiencies, background, and bard abilities that exist in expertise plus some relevant spells. D&D also needed to separate druids and bards, which have a lot of overlap as well, and listed the flavour in the circle druids. If proficiency covers that concept for druids then bards are equal by proficiency or better by expertise anyway. This allows players who want to follow a different archetype to do so because the historian becomes a choice instead of a requirement.

Which gets to my next point. I have a good understanding of historical and mythological bards, and of similar concepts from other cultures. I have my favourite archetype and I can produce it easily in 5e. This doesn't make my archetype the default nor does it mean other players need to make the same bard I make.

Bards are one of the most customizable classes in 5e with any background, any skills, and spells that can be selected from any list before looking at feats or multiclassing. If someone wants more musical focus that's fine and if someone wants no significant musical focus that's fine. A valor bard with a thief background who takes spells shared with the druid list is very much like a 1e bard, for example. This is a pretty good system to give the bard each of us wants while no default is forced.

As for your sorcerer and rogue examples, they can do that. A rogue can take the entertainer background and appropriate skills then go arcane trickster then call himself a bard.. A cleric, druid, sorcerer, or barbarian can do the same thing. A person should always look at the concept and build from that using existing tools instead of just looking at a class. I think players should be building a concept they want to play instead of looking at a class and thinking they need to play it a certain way. For a sorcerer it's entirely possible to make a new bloodline to match the concept and take it a step further working with the DM.

I wasn't sure if some of your questions were rhetorical or not so I either agreed and expanded a bit or answered them. One of the two. ;-)

I do disagree on your take of literacy and forcing them to go back to their knowledge roots because I think that takes concepts away from players when we can already make a knowledge bard.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I think in more civilized setting, I can see bards being trained by the military to see behind the front lines bellowing out morale boosting words and relaying orders secret codes and pyrotechnics.

In fact, the idea that hobgoblins do not have evil metal bands in the midst of their warbands and regiments growling and screaming "DESTROY CONQUER AND KILL!!" just doesn't match up my stereotypical image of them. The question is which flavor of metal.
 


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