Bards just don't convince me!

[two]

This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, I personally don't like the bard class, I can understand and appreciate it but mass multiple minion creating magical music doesn't appeal, the utility caster with odds and ends of useful spells and surprising and interesting spells and skills does though, I may end up playing a bard some time and just not think too much about the singing/chanting/screaming warcries bit of bard song (a goblin war drummer did appeal but being unarmed in combat and having hands full sounds a bit annoying, any one got a cunning get around for this?)

On the other hand I thought I'd reply to soujourners post and answer his questions:

Wizard against golem - buff party, change environment to aid fight, telehinethis knock walls on top of it, disintergrate ground from under it, imprison it with wall spells

Fighter with DR that they can't bypass - only case where I can imagine that this is possible is with a dexterity based two weapon fighting feat tree fighter that has a low strength and no elemental weapons, not likely to be fighting something with high DR with that (at least if your playing DnD as set out by the core rules). After the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 the strength based fighter is still doing damage past DR even with out the right weapon.

Rogue against undead - tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire, acid flasks, wand of fireball, wand of command undead, searilng light, taking out the commander (if not undead), using a tripping weapon (in my case a whip) to trip/disarm them.

Though I understand your point that there are sub optimum situations for each class, they are by no means completely hosed in those circumstances unless they really are an extremely munchkined un balanced character and that can be done with anything one of the most un appealing being the diplomacy twinked bard.

Well you are right in a way. A maximized archer-fighter or archer-ranger is going to be better at range than a maximized archer-bard (by a little, in pure archery damage).

A maximized sorcerer enchanter is going to be better at enchantments than the bard, by a fair degree.

A maximized buffer-cleric is going to be a better party buffer than a maximized buffing bard.

But that sort of maximization has its drawbacks.

Take, for example, the maximized fighter-archer vs. the maximized bard archer. At low levels the bard is just as good at hitting/damaging due to the bard song effecting his own arrows. At higher levels it takes more work, particularly using Inspire Greatness etc. on oneself and etc. By level 15 the fighter-archer is probably doing on average 4-5 more points of damage per arrow. The fighter has "won" the battle vs. the archer bard.

But what has the fighter given up? From the bard's perspective, full caster progression, a decent arcane spellcasting list, skills, will save, etc. etc. In other words, a maximized bard archer is about 80% of a maximized fighter archer PLUS he's a solid 2nd line caster and has better survivability due to buffing spells, saves, and what-have-you.

You can play the same gave with an enchanter bard. Yes, an enchanter bard is always gonna have fewer spells than the sorcerer; perhaps the enchanter bard is 60% as effetive as the sorcerer enchanter. But in cases where enchantments don't cut it (lots of situations) a sorcerer enchanter is kinda hosed. The bard can still attack, buff party using non-spells, has better hit points & survavability, etc.

In my view, the question is this:

Would you like to have an archer 75% as good as a fighter-archer who's also able to cast 6th level spells eventually?

Would you like an enchanter that's 60% as good as a sorcerer enchanter but also able to escape grapples occasionally/fight/ranged combat and is slightly more robust in hit points and saves and AC?

That's the real question. If you look at a Bard20 vs. a Fighter20, I know what I'd pick in a heartbeat. Yeah, the fighter does 25 more points of damage via arrows during a full attack sequence, but the bard can still pump out very solid ranged damage, plus...shadow walk, dimension door, dominate, alter self, mirror image, irresistable dance, improved invis, greater dispel magic, silence, etc. etc. That's just juicy.

I think the whole "general is worse than specialized" or "specialized is better than general" thing misses the point, which is this: a well-build bard isn't lagging that much behind other builds (archer, enchanter for example), and gets a great host of benefits/spells to make up for the small lag. I view it more as spreading power around than indicating a weakness in being a "generalist".

*also worth noting, with nothing more than the "silence" spell known, a bard can be a 95% effective counterspeller anytime the party is faced with a powerful enemy caster. That's a type of "general effectiveness" that comes with nearly no downside. It's a spell known, granted, but silence also has a lot of other utility uses. Bards have a lot of these kinds of abilities, none of which a fighter-type can achieve (easily)*

*also also worth noting, sorcerers almost always end the day with spells unused, usually a lot of them. In some cases (I wonder how often? 30% of the time?) the smaller number of bard spells is sufficient for the day, simply because there are only one or two encounters).

 

[Saeviomagy]

A goblin war drummer did appeal but being unarmed in combat and having hands full sounds a bit annoying, any one got a cunning get around for this?

Make the drum beater a weapon. Club sounds good. He could even be drumming on a shield...

Wizard against golem - buff party, change environment to aid fight, telehinethis knock walls on top of it, disintergrate ground from under it, imprison it with wall spells

Buffing the party, sure - but now you're down to the same degree of effectiveness as the bard. Except YOU don't have inspire courage. Disintegrating the ground isn't likely to be too effective. Imprisoning it is ok. Knocking walls on it won't do much - most walls aren't adamantine...

Fighter with DR that they can't bypass - only case where I can imagine that this is possible is with a dexterity based two weapon fighting feat tree fighter that has a low strength and no elemental weapons, not likely to be fighting something with high DR with that (at least if your playing DnD as set out by the core rules). After the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 the strength based fighter is still doing damage past DR even with out the right weapon.

If you're looking at high DRs early with the wrong weapons, then you're in trouble. The high level of power attack needed means you miss, the high amount of DR cancels out a lot of your damage. The bard helps with both of those problems.

Rogue against undead - tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire, acid flasks, wand of fireball, wand of command undead, searilng light, taking out the commander (if not undead), using a tripping weapon (in my case a whip) to trip/disarm them.

See those neat alchemist's fires? Guess what gets bardic music added to it? Acid too. The bard's ones do too, and he can actually make the things if he wants. And the bard gets whip as a weapon proficiency...

 

[JBONE27]

At 8th level, the song of courage becomes +2. That's +2 to hit *and* damage for the whole party that the bard can do 8 times per day. That's insane.

Think of the bard as a rogue who gets Dominate Person and Haste and

Here's some awesome spells bards get:
Tasha's Hideous Laughter - 1st level spell that is pretty much Otto's Irresistible Dance, except you get a will save (and it lasts longer at higher levels)
Alter Self - 2nd level spell that gives you +6 natural armor for 10min per level? Yes, thank you.
Blindness - fort save or the guy is effectively out of the fight. I'll take it.
Detect Thoughts - find people behind walls, find out what their plans are
Hold Person - oldy, but a goody
Invisibility - as above
Blink - 50% miss chance and you can walk through walls. Handy.
Glibness - +30 to bluff?! Holee crapola! "Umm.. yeah, this rock is actually an incredibly valuable moonstone... What? Sure, I'll trade it for that magic sword"
Haste.. mmm.. haste...
Fear - if you've ever been hit by this as a PC, you know how crazy good it is
Dominate Person - *drool*
Modify Memory - "Don't you remember, I paid you for the armor when I requested it"
And oh yeah, bards get the real Otto's Irresistible Dance, too.

Plus, 6 skillpoints per level, plus bardic knowledge, plus the best charisma in the party... you DO go to town *sometime* right?

I played a bard and he kicked ass. You can buff the party while the wizard starts blasting things... when that's done, you can wade in and get your melee on, all the while giving everyone +2 to hit and damage.

Bards can be a huge help to a party when played correctly. They're not brainless fighters or blaster mages.. you have to actually work a bit to get the most out of them, but if you do, they can be a significant help in almost any situation.

-The Souljourner

Here are some you missed.
Lullaby: a level zero spell that can actually help you out a lot. -5 on spot and listen means you can sneak around anywhere.
Inprovisation: Level 1 spell that allows you to automatically hit at higher levels (level 20 bard can use a +10 atack).
Undersong: Hey you're going to spend those skill points on perform anyway.
Cloud of Bewilderment: If someone withing the 10 foot radius does not pass a fort save they are both blinded and stunned. If they do, they still have to remain in the area as long as the cloud is up.
Crushing Despair: - 2 on everything but armor.
Good Hope: + 2 on everything but armor.
Dirge of Discord: Basically the polar opposite of Haste.
Fugue: So many ways I can destroy you right now.
Shadow Conjuration: Want to summon anything at any time, well now you can.
Spectral Weapon: Yes I would like to have all of my attacks turn into touch attacks.
Unluck: You thought you got a critical... well it turns out it was a critical miss.
Mislead: Ha ha, you missed me.
Shadow Evocation: Like Conjuration, except instead of balls of acid and monsters, it's balls of fire and lightening.
Nixie's Grace: +8 to my already obsene Cha, combined with gauntlets of heartfelt blows, feinting flair, and arcane strike=one shotting a lesser god.

 

[kitcik]

Welcome to the board!

Maybe those were in books that were not yet printed in 2005 (the date of the post you responded to)?

Anyways, you got the spirit of the board right - thanks for the contribution.

 

[Jeffrie]

I'm in the pro bard camp.
I do think there is math involved in the game. I like what was said; 'bards are the best in two player games, and 6+ games'. Yet still DM traits, and player traits, could make bards useful or not.

I think more or less like two gave in comment 131. Yes a specialist is better for a 4 person 1GM conventional game. But if your game in any way is not conventional hack and slash. . .. . well, you *do* go into town sometimes, right?

I admit. I'm addicted to multiclass. Can't get over it, and don't want to. Fochlucan Lyrist, Baby. Why? Because it's there.

I like being a little unpredictable to the GM, and the other players. A fighter can trounce a bard in a brawl, but what bard is gonna do that? A fighter would likely lose to a bard without knowing there had been a fight. "Viola`! You're my new best friend. Go stab those guys."

I understand the ultimate mechanics argument (read the whole thread), and the MAD argument, but i love skill monkeys and spymasters, and they gotta have spells. I will quickly switch sides in a game, or appear to, if the plot allows.

What's wrong with a Diplomacy tweaked bard?