Bards just don't convince me!

[The Souljourner]

Our fighters normally hit, even with full power attack. The pluses to hit don't help them at all. SOME enemies with high ACs it helps against, but on the average, useless. Yes, this is normally due to 30+ strength barbarians.

Let's see.... 18 strength to start, +5 from levels, +8 from mighty rage, +6 from magic item = 37 strength = +13 to hit. +5 magic item, +1 weapon focus.... I'm running out of plusses here... that's +19 to hit. That still only hits 35 AC on a 16, and that's the best attacker in the game, a level 20 barbarian. Unless you roll 16+ all the time, I'd hardly call that "normally", so unless you have something else.... I just can't see how anyone in sub-epic levels can "normally" hit AC 35 with full power attack.

Sorry, but you obviously play in a campaign that is vastly different from what is held as "standard" by the makers of D&D. So, maybe bards wouldn't be a good choice in your campaign. That's certainly possible.

-The Souljourner

 

[glass]

oh and BTW, First post (on this board, not of the thread)!!

Welcome!


glass.

 

[glass]

Let's see.... 18 strength to start, +5 from levels, +8 from mighty rage, +6 from magic item = 37 strength = +13 to hit. +5 magic item, +1 weapon focus.... I'm running out of plusses here... that's +19 to hit. That still only hits 35 AC on a 16, and that's the best attacker in the game, a level 20 barbarian. Unless you roll 16+ all the time, I'd hardly call that "normally", so unless you have something else.... I just can't see how anyone in sub-epic levels can "normally" hit AC 35 with full power attack.

You missed +5 from a book or wishes, which makes 42 Str (+16), for a total to hit bonus of +22. But that still only hits AC 35 on 13+. Still hardly all the time unless you use weighted dice!


glass.

 

[Scion]

You missed +5 from a book or wishes, which makes 42 Str (+16), for a total to hit bonus of +22. But that still only hits AC 35 on 13+. Still hardly all the time unless you use weighted dice!

Standard of heroism (complete warrior), pretty much a bard on your shoulder all of the time

+ Leadership and a buddy who is always helping you to get a +2 attack.

now up to 9+ to hit, that sounds like a 'most of the time' at least

Oh, and it does make some of the bard stuff useless.. the standard effects the whole party so long as they are nearby.

 

[Kilroy]

Bards have a couple neat powers (Bardic Knowledge is neat, but Loremasters are more powerful generaly)

The trouble is, D&D is really designed for a team of specialists, and bards are generalists. Even if they're good enough most of the time, that's not good enough, as to survive, a group needs to be good enough all of the time. A bard can't even be pretty good at everything, with the way character growth works mechanically, they tend to be either second fiddle at a couple jobs and horrid at the rest, or merely bad at everything. Most of the examples given have talked about how a great player can make the character overpowered. The reality is that a great character can make just about any other class even more overpowered, if that's what you're going for.

Really, they're there as a roleplaying class. What they provide to a group is comic relief, and for me, that's an important part of the game. I've played a full bard once (not to high levels) in a game where we each had to play our anti-characters, the characters we'd be least likely to play in a long term game. I based him on Ben Stein, and my bardic spells were based on confusion and boredom. A math question would Daze a target, starting a longwinded explanation of the rock strata in the Sunless Citadel would put things to Sleep. He wasn't powerful, but he was kinda fun.

I do think there's a lot of roleplaying potential in taking a couple levels of bard, even if it's not powergamey. Imagine the high level wizard who wants to join a band to pick up girls, or the thuggish barbarian who decides to become a gangster rapper. ;-)

 

[Kilroy]

You missed +5 from a book or wishes, which makes 42 Str (+16), for a total to hit bonus of +22. But that still only hits AC 35 on 13+. Still hardly all the time unless you use weighted dice!


glass.

Don't forget +1 from armor enchanted to cast Righteous Might (or maybe just Enlarge Person) when the character rages, +5 from a potion of Divine Favor, +1 from Haste, and another +lots from being polymorphed into a Storm Giant. If you haven't hit 60 str by level 20 you aren't trying hard enough.

A level 20 barbarian's most common phrase is "Not a 1".

 

[blargney the second]

Fascinate/Suggestion is always an option, but I feel it's better to go for buffs because for F/S you have to ask the part to step aside so that you can do your thing...no one's ever going to argue with buffs (if they do, they're crazy!)

Welcome to the boards, gamefiend!

Bards are great at buffing and debuffing - particularly with the number of spells they get that affect multiple targets simultaneously. in a similar vein, I've also heard bards make the best counterspellers in the game. I'd like to try that build sometime.

I love the Suggestion ability of bards - it has such massive utility! In order for it to be a useful tactic you have to want to do something other than number-crunching, but that's no big deal for me.

-blarg

 

[The Souljourner]

Ok, so it's possible at really high levels with enough cheese. With the first attack. What about with the second? Third? Fourth? And what about before 20th? Level 8? 12? Your attack bonus is going to be *much* lower, because you won't have a +6 strength item, a +5 book, or a +5 magic weapon. And I don't know about you, but 99.9% of the games I've played in are levels 1-14... and you definitely run into things all the time that are really difficult to hit.

Kilroy, you say they have to be good enough all the time... the bard is way more likely to stay good enough all the time than any specialist class. You're saying that the Wizard is doing anything useful when you happen upon a golem? Or how about fighters against DR they can't bypass, or rogues against undead? Specialists are WAY more likely to be completely useless during a fight than a generalist.

-The Souljourner

 

[Pielorinho]

In case we are keeping score that's:
Wizard: 60
Cleric: Useful, but 0
Rogue: 35
Fighter: 64
Bard: 24

Hmm...I'm getting a different score. But maybe that's because I'm counting the damage done by the bard's dominated barbarian, as well as by the various enemies who failed their saves against Song of Discord last round, as well as by the fighter and rogue using their extra attacks granted by the bard's Haste spell.

If we assume you're talking about sixteenth-level characters, that fighter can hit five times, gaining +3 on damage on each hit. The rogue can hit four times (I think), again with +3 damage on each hit. The dominated barbarian can hit five times, with +3 damage on each hit. And each of the bad guys will stand a strong chance of hitting each other.

More than anyone else in your example, the bard's actions are cumulative: actions undertaken in previous rounds continue to affect the battle in the current round.

Daniel

Daniel

 

[Snowy]

SNIP

Kilroy, you say they have to be good enough all the time... the bard is way more likely to stay good enough all the time than any specialist class. You're saying that the Wizard is doing anything useful when you happen upon a golem? Or how about fighters against DR they can't bypass, or rogues against undead? Specialists are WAY more likely to be completely useless during a fight than a generalist.

-The Souljourner

This is getting to be a really interesting discussion, I personally don't like the bard class, I can understand and appreciate it but mass multiple minion creating magical music doesn't appeal, the utility caster with odds and ends of useful spells and surprising and interesting spells and skills does though, I may end up playing a bard some time and just not think too much about the singing/chanting/screaming warcries bit of bard song (a goblin war drummer did appeal but being unarmed in combat and having hands full sounds a bit annoying, any one got a cunning get around for this?)

On the other hand I thought I'd reply to soujourners post and answer his questions:

Wizard against golem - buff party, change environment to aid fight, telehinethis knock walls on top of it, disintergrate ground from under it, imprison it with wall spells

Fighter with DR that they can't bypass - only case where I can imagine that this is possible is with a dexterity based two weapon fighting feat tree fighter that has a low strength and no elemental weapons, not likely to be fighting something with high DR with that (at least if your playing DnD as set out by the core rules). After the changes from 3.0 to 3.5 the strength based fighter is still doing damage past DR even with out the right weapon.

Rogue against undead - tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire, acid flasks, wand of fireball, wand of command undead, searilng light, taking out the commander (if not undead), using a tripping weapon (in my case a whip) to trip/disarm them.

Though I understand your point that there are sub optimum situations for each class, they are by no means completely hosed in those circumstances unless they really are an extremely munchkined un balanced character and that can be done with anything one of the most un appealing being the diplomacy twinked bard.