Bards just don't convince me!
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Lobo Lurker
First Post
Uhh... If that feat doubles your inspire courage ability wouldn't it double your inspire courage and THEN be affected by the spell? That's how I'd rule it as a DM unless someone offered me a really convincing argument.
The Souljourner
First Post
Exalted Deeds has some crazy stuff. Words of Creation is one of those crazy things. Just ignore it and maybe it'll go away.
You can't use overpowered feats that no sane DM would let in a campaign to make a case for a class being balanced. Luckily, you don't have to.
Bards are actually balanced very much like clerics. The only difference is, they don't have to waste the majority of their spellcasting on healing spells, and they get a crapload more skills and skillpoints.
Bards rock. If you haven't played with someone who knows how to use them, you just won't get it.
-The Souljourner
You can't use overpowered feats that no sane DM would let in a campaign to make a case for a class being balanced. Luckily, you don't have to.
Bards are actually balanced very much like clerics. The only difference is, they don't have to waste the majority of their spellcasting on healing spells, and they get a crapload more skills and skillpoints.
Bards rock. If you haven't played with someone who knows how to use them, you just won't get it.
-The Souljourner
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
A few notes on bards.
1. Bards are (usually) a support class. This has been dealt with well enough by others. With inspirational boost, they really dramatically increase the damage output of a party.
1.5 What hasn't been discussed yet is inspire competence and inspire greatness. Inspire competence will often provide the bonus for a maxed out rogue to succeed at finding or disabling an equal CR trap while taking ten. Which means that a sneaky party can travel at twice the speed and much more security (assuming the inspiration can work through a message spell, rary's telepathic bond, or the bard has the subsonics feat).
Inspire greatness is very helpful as well--especially at high levels. Not only does it grant temporary hit dice for a bonus to hit and hit points that stack with almost everything, the bonus hit dice also make characters less vulnerable to a number of HD based effects. For instance, I was playing a Living Greyhawk interactive with my (the 14th level) character about a year ago. First round into the final battle, the enemy casts blasphemy. My character is completely unaffected. Why? Because the bard's inspiration made him count as 16 HD instead of 14. In another adventure, I wished our party had a bard to do that. Our 12th level party was beset by Hezrou who could keep us from doing anything almost indefinitely with their blasphemies. Had any one of us been inspired with greatness, it would have made a tremendous difference. (Since that character would have been able to act and possibly put up a silence spell or something similar to stop the blasphemies and enable the rest of the party to act).
2. Bards are probably the best class for an intrigue focussed game. With all of the social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate) on their class list a heavy selection of enchantment spells (often at reduced level vis a vis sor/wiz), the bardsong fascinate ability (which lets them oppose their skill check to the enemy's saves meaning it will usually succeed) and the suggestion ability, as well as exclusive spells like modify memory, a bard is the best choice for a spymaster, etc. type character.
1. Bards are (usually) a support class. This has been dealt with well enough by others. With inspirational boost, they really dramatically increase the damage output of a party.
1.5 What hasn't been discussed yet is inspire competence and inspire greatness. Inspire competence will often provide the bonus for a maxed out rogue to succeed at finding or disabling an equal CR trap while taking ten. Which means that a sneaky party can travel at twice the speed and much more security (assuming the inspiration can work through a message spell, rary's telepathic bond, or the bard has the subsonics feat).
Inspire greatness is very helpful as well--especially at high levels. Not only does it grant temporary hit dice for a bonus to hit and hit points that stack with almost everything, the bonus hit dice also make characters less vulnerable to a number of HD based effects. For instance, I was playing a Living Greyhawk interactive with my (the 14th level) character about a year ago. First round into the final battle, the enemy casts blasphemy. My character is completely unaffected. Why? Because the bard's inspiration made him count as 16 HD instead of 14. In another adventure, I wished our party had a bard to do that. Our 12th level party was beset by Hezrou who could keep us from doing anything almost indefinitely with their blasphemies. Had any one of us been inspired with greatness, it would have made a tremendous difference. (Since that character would have been able to act and possibly put up a silence spell or something similar to stop the blasphemies and enable the rest of the party to act).
2. Bards are probably the best class for an intrigue focussed game. With all of the social skills (bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, intimidate) on their class list a heavy selection of enchantment spells (often at reduced level vis a vis sor/wiz), the bardsong fascinate ability (which lets them oppose their skill check to the enemy's saves meaning it will usually succeed) and the suggestion ability, as well as exclusive spells like modify memory, a bard is the best choice for a spymaster, etc. type character.
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
Keys to the Bardic Kingdom..
I have seen the real answer sprinkled here and there, but few have highlighted it...
Bardic characters require more thought, planning, and creativity on the part of the player. Until you see the Bards abilities exploited by a good player, you won't be convinced. Mechanically they are weaker in virtually every aspect, but the synergies that can be manipulated build those mechanics up into a powerfull {and balanced} class.
Just like the Druid and Ranger, a Bard in the party requires the DM to provide unique challenges and opportunities. He/she has to be able to explain ancient history, possibly hiding the key to a puzzle inside. Its not as simple as "I swing at the Orc".
Anyway.. JMHO
I have seen the real answer sprinkled here and there, but few have highlighted it...
Souljourner said:
DonTadow said:
Pielorinho said:
Bardic characters require more thought, planning, and creativity on the part of the player. Until you see the Bards abilities exploited by a good player, you won't be convinced. Mechanically they are weaker in virtually every aspect, but the synergies that can be manipulated build those mechanics up into a powerfull {and balanced} class.
Just like the Druid and Ranger, a Bard in the party requires the DM to provide unique challenges and opportunities. He/she has to be able to explain ancient history, possibly hiding the key to a puzzle inside. Its not as simple as "I swing at the Orc".
Anyway.. JMHO
two
First Post
moritheil said:
Even a bard1 (using a masterwork item) can do +2/+2 damage when inspiring courage.
In a 10 player group, the bard is nearly always guaranteed to do the most "damage" by the end of the combat round. Assusing something like 7 damage dealers (melee, ranged), it's nearly impossible for the bard to account for less than 15 or 20 points of damage per round. At level 1. That beats the raging barbarian that always hits every round. (this includes not just the +2 damage per hit but the misses that turn into hits via the +2 to hit).
Bards are to big groups what low intelligence is to a Hollywood career: a huge benefit.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Where is this from? It's not under musical instruments (p 130) or inspire courage (p 29) or Perform (p 79). Is this a variant rule from a splatbook?two said:
Daniel
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