Bards just don't convince me!

[SweeneyTodd]

I know this is the rules forum, but I have to go with something in the original post:

There's a player who'd enjoy playing a bard. That, to me, is sufficient reason for him to do it. (Especially because we've seen how flexible the class is -- someone who's motivated to make it interesting will seek out those opportunities, thus maximizing his usefulness.) It just seems wrong to me to prohibit a player from playing a class they'd enjoy; no core class is so bad as to be prohibited.

In my own experience, seeing bards played with core books only, from 5th to 15th level, in a party of four to six PCs, they certainly hold their own.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Where is this from? It's not under musical instruments (p 130) or inspire courage (p 29) or Perform (p 79). Is this a variant rule from a splatbook?

Daniel

There's some stuff in Complete Adventurer that recommends shifting bonuses around. For instance, a masterwork trumpet / horn increases the attack and damage bonus by 1, but decreases the fear saving throw bonus by 1.

There may be other, similar rules elsewhere.

 

[two]

yeah, similar rules in Song&Silence.

Plus apparantly a new CA bard spell allows another +1/+1 boost which stacks. Gotta wait until level 2 for a 1st level bard spell, however.

*can somebody post spell specifics? i don't have the book*

In theory, +3/+3 1ce/day is feasible at 2nd level using WOTC sources (masterwork musical item + CA spell). Rest of the time it's +2/+2 and no save bonuses.

 

[Evilhalfling]

Whee -
just played my first bard - (described earlier on this thread)
even with an 8 str, he is a fair hand with a bow, and the constant inspire courage works wonders on a 6 player group. and Silence is the ultimate counterspell.
My question is, can I inspire the paladins warhose?

 

[Victim]

There's some stuff in Complete Adventurer that recommends shifting bonuses around. For instance, a masterwork trumpet / horn increases the attack and damage bonus by 1, but decreases the fear saving throw bonus by 1.

There may be other, similar rules elsewhere.

Using a horn also reduces the duration after you stop playing to 1 round; it's not exactly a free bonus.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

It's possible that I'm used to playing with overpowered characters, but I've found the bard bonus just isn't impressive.

Normally, even if it adds +3/+3, you have a turn that works like this:

Wizard casts a fireball for 20 damage to 3 enemies (60 total), gets no benefit from bard song
Cleric heals someone(or buffs), gets no benefit from bard song
Rogue moves into sneak attack position, attacks, doing 35 damage, does 3 extra damage due to bard song
Fighter/Barbarian hits AC 35 when the enemy only had an ac of 24 even with a full power attack, doing 67 points of damage. 3 of which was from the bard song.
Bard likely hits doing 15 damage, 3 of which was from bard song

In case we are keeping score that's:
Wizard: 60
Cleric: Useful, but 0
Rogue: 35
Fighter: 64
Bard: 24

And then, the enemy dies in that one round worth of attacks as it only had 150 hp. His minions died due to the fireballs.

 

[Coredump]

Your example is nice, but without data, it is just a nice story.

The fighter hit AC 35, was that with a 20, or with a 2?

The Rogue hit, again,what did he need? How was he flanking?

35 points as average damage for one hit.... means level 17 rogue.
20 points as average damage for fireball...means level 7 mage.
64 points as average damage for one hit...means level ?? fighter/barb

Convenient that there were only 2 minions, and that all 3 were in the AoE of fireball.

What level were these folks, was that average damage,or max, or min?


You only add the damage from the +3 damage, you forget about the added damage from the +3 to hit.
And in your example, the Bard did more than the cleric, so maybe the cleric is underpowered,or just not very useful.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

You only add the damage from the +3 damage, you forget about the added damage from the +3 to hit.
And in your example, the Bard did more than the cleric, so maybe the cleric is underpowered,or just not very useful.

Don't get me wrong, I was making up numbers, I was just giving an example of the types of situations I see. The numbers are made up, but the ratios are about right. In certain situations, each class shines. However, is seems that 75% of combats are like the one above.

If you want it in more generalities:

Our fighters normally hit, even with full power attack. The pluses to hit don't help them at all. SOME enemies with high ACs it helps against, but on the average, useless. Yes, this is normally due to 30+ strength barbarians.

Most of the time bard songs have no effect on at least 50% of the party in any given round.

I don't think I need to justify clerics holding their own

I would prefer another fireball or another 64 points of damage from a fighter over the bard benefits any day.

Bards CAN be useful (especially creative use of feats and PrC), but their usefulness is limited. Their job each round tends to be to have about 60% of the effect that a "normal" class would have each round. They can switch between classes each round though.

Problem is, most of the time, we find encounters hard enough that 60% isn't good enough. If you get hit for 60 damage each round and you have 90 hp, then when someone casts a healing spell on you, they better heal you for over 30 so you can survive next round. 20 points isn't good enough. If the enemy has 30 hit points left and is going to kill one of your party members right after your turn, you need to be able to do 30 damage, not 20.

Those types of situations happen fairly often to us.

 

[Coredump]

Don't get me wrong, I was making up numbers, I was just giving an example of the types of situations I see. The numbers are made up, but the ratios are about right. In certain situations, each class shines. However, is seems that 75% of combats are like the one above.

If you want it in more generalities:

Actually, I wanted it in more specifics. The numbers you 'made up' don't seem to hold together very well. The levels are off, and there is no indication of *how* the barbarian did 64 points in one attack, or why the mage and rogue are 10 levels apart, or why the BBEG is only a CR8...etc.

But lets say the bad guy has only a 24 AC. And the fighter has a +18 to hit. So he only needs a 6 to hit. ANd will do 64 pts per hit
The Barb does 48pts per attack.
Now the Bard gives +3/+3, so the Barb needs a 3 to hit
The barb does 60.6 points per attack.

this is *assuming* the barb would hit on a 6 with full power attack.
Now, what level is this Barb with 30 str? And why would the BBEG only have a 24 AC? 24 AC is pretty typical for a CR7-9 monster.

A similar amount would happen for the thief.

And for the Cleric once he decides to participate.

Of course, with the Bard Song, he may be able to forgo the buffing and actually attack the first round.

The pluses to hit don't help them at all.

And this is why we need specifics, because they *will* help. Even if you only need a 6, the +3/+3 gives a 25% improvement. And once you need more (like a 10...) the impact is even more. If you regularly have to hits above their AC, then something else is wrong with your campaign.

I don't think I need to justify clerics holding their own

But your example clearly shows that Clerics are not good contributors to a party. Unless of course your made up example is lacking in some detail....

 

[gamefiend]

A few people are dancing around the bard's real strength --buffing/debuffing. No character buffs as well as the bard. If you have at least Complete Adventurer, your bard can contribute greatly.

The bard's ability, unlike most casters' buffs, has no limits on targets. 3...10...20...as long as the bard can be heard (with lots of combatants you might need an amp), he can buff any amount of people. The bard can become a very deadly force multiplier if he acquires a cohort and followers (via Leadership). Someone in the thread mentioned the "paper tiger" force...imagine that force in conjuction with your main party who are also benefitting from the bard's music and spells.

Even better, imagine a party with the Bard and the Paladin with their cohorts and followers! This is obviously a nightmare for a DM, but the threat it poses is nasty. Tactical Precision becomes pretty murderous with a group like this.


Bards need Inspirational Boost. With masterwork mandolin, he can add +3 to hit for all characters --we won't even get into the BoED stuff (mainly because I don't have it )
Two great bard spells I didn't see talked about: Tactical Precision (extra +2 and +1d6 damage for flanking allies), and phantom speech.

For casters, the bard has hymn of praise and harmonic lore. I think +2 caster level and +2 DCs is pretty decent at mid levels.

On the debuff side, bards get wave of Grief , Herald's Call, Distort Speech & Insidious Rhythm (mage disruptors!), Crushing Despair, Dirge of Dischord...

Fascinate/Suggestion is always an option, but I feel it's better to go for buffs because for F/S you have to ask the part to step aside so that you can do your thing...no one's ever going to argue with buffs (if they do, they're crazy!)

oh and BTW, First post (on this board, not of the thread)!!