Bards - Likes and Dislikes?

[Firebeetle]

They're not combat meisters by themselves. Never will be.

Why not? Why does "good at talking" mean "bad at combat"? Remember, bards were warriors as well as lorekeepers historically. And 1st edition bards (the first prestige class) had many levels of fighter.

Hardly. A sorcerer or psion isn't going to have the skill points to compete, and a rogue (despite their skill points) probably isn't go to max Diplomacy. Bluff, maybe, but they won't have the CHA that a bard will. Plus bards can take personality-affecting spells like charm person, and they can take Eagle's Splendor.

Probably, schobably. Who cares about stereotypes? The Rogue or Sorcerer CAN beat a bard at his own game if he wants to, which means the bard class is broken if he can't be best at what he's suppoused to be best at. If I want to make a Bluff heavy character, I multiclass Rogue and Sorcerer, NOT bard. I get mondo skill points, a viper familiar (+3 to Bluff), sneak attack (usable with feint), AND Eagle's Splendor. We can Bluff better than a bard, and get combat results for his trouble which a bard can't. Once again, the bard is shamed.

That's not a limitation of bardic music, per se. It's a function of being able to maintain concentration on only one effect at a time. Casters have the same disadvantage. And even at first level, Inspire Courage lasts for 5 rounds after singing for one.

I understand the mechanic, thank you. That doesn't change the "stinkiness" for me.

An average of 1 pt per level isn't worth quibbling over, and I'd be hard-pressed to buy into bards and rangers having the same hit die.

If it's not worth quibbling over then why be "hard-pressed"? You're still in the "bards are pansies" mode I guess.

Bardic lore isn't supposed to take the place of ranks in Knowledge skills, its there to complement them. Want to know everything about Olidimmara, put some points in Knowledge (Religion). Want a chance to recognize the abandoned temple without those ranks, use Bardic Knowledge. Think of it as being able to do untrained Knowledge checks, which no other class can do. (That said, I'd have rather seen Bardic Knowledge as an enhancement to skill checks rather than its own mechanic.)

You haven't addressed my point, which is that Bardic Knowledge doesn't tell you anything useful unless the DM happens to think of it. In particular, it DOESN'T allow you know about monsters or magic items, which seems silly.

1 per level. But yeah, more than anything else, that sucks. Bad design, and totally inconsistent with the other classes. Especially stupid in 3.5, where Perform ranks have to be divided among performance types.

Glad we are in agreement here.

Against your typical rogue, you'll have better face skills, better knowledge skills, better language skills, and various spells including healing. Nnot to mention not having to make UMD checks for lots of useful things. You can be pretty sneaky on your own, and in a stand-up fight are as good at combat.

If I want to make a "face man" character, I'm better off with rogue, period. That's just wrong. Bard should be the clear first choice.

That is kinda weak in that it never comes up. Something that let the bard force a concentration check for any enemy casting a spell with a verbal component would have been more useful.

I'd rather have something useful instead, like the ability to try any skill untrained.

That's true across the board. Stats matter less and less (skillwise) the higher in level you get. The difference for a fighter between STR 14 and STR 18 at 1st level is immense; much less so at 12th.

A fighter with STR 8 or DEX 8 would be not very good as a fighter. Yet a bard with CHA 8 wouldn't make much of an impact. Try it.

Oh, I forgot to mention.

WE DON'T GET OUR OWN SPELL LIST! We get a few spells and a list of hand-me-down spells from other classes. Joy. Bards need and deserve their own spell list.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Why not? Why does "good at talking" mean "bad at combat"? Remember, bards were warriors as well as lorekeepers historically.

Sure, but while Odysseus was a good fighter, he wasn't as good as Achilles. Bragi wasn't as good as Thor. In terms of straight-up fighting prowess, bards are the same as clerics, rogues or druids. (The real problem here is clerics and druids getting better BAB than they should. Especially druids.) A combat-focused bard can be reasonably effective in melee combat, but not as good as a fighter. If they want more, multi-class.

I don't WANT to multiclass. I want bards to be powerful on their own without having to multiclass.

vs

And 1st edition bards (the first prestige class) had many levels of fighter.

Uh, yeah, cause they multi-classed. Try the Fochlucan Lyricist, too.

Probably, schobably. Who cares about stereotypes? The Rogue or Sorcerer CAN beat a bard at his own game if he wants to, which means the bard class is broken if he can't be best at what he's suppoused to be best at. If I want to make a Bluff heavy character, I multiclass Rogue and Sorcerer, NOT bard. I get mondo skill points, a viper familiar (+3 to Bluff), sneak attack (usable with feint), AND Eagle's Splendor. We can Bluff better than a bard, and get combat results for his trouble which a bard can't. Once again, the bard is shamed

Stick to your original assertion -- that rogues and sorcerers can beat a bard at 'Bluff and Diplomacy'. Very hard for a sorc to come close -- he'd have to spend nearly all his skill points to the exclusion of everything else, and burn a feat to get Diplomacy as a class skill, spend limited spell slots on equivalent spells, and still wouldn't have fascinate/suggestion. And there is no way he'd compete if he tried to play at the other 'face' skills -- Gather Information, Intimidate, Sense Motive. A focused rogue could come close, but have no supplemental spells or fascinate/suggestion. But rogues are the skill-monkeys -- that's their forte. And sneak attack doesn't make rogues *better* at bluffing, it just benefits them more in a combat sense. But that has nothing to do with how well the bard can bluff.

A wild-shaped druid or Tenser'd mage can beat a fighter at their own game in certain circumstances. Does that mean the fighter sucks? A rogue with a high UMD and a butt-load of wands could out-blast a sorceror for a while, too.

If it's not worth quibbling over then why be "hard-pressed"? You're still in the "bards are pansies" mode I guess.

Huh? You're seriously suggesting a bard -- the class that epitomizes 'I'm a lover, not a fighter' should have the same hit die as a ranger? And an average of 20pts less at 20th level is trivial, anyway.

You haven't addressed my point, which is that Bardic Knowledge doesn't tell you anything useful unless the DM happens to think of it. In particular, it DOESN'T allow you know about monsters or magic items, which seems silly.

You want guarantees, take 'Knowledge (Whatever)' which is a class skill, and even that is subject to DM arbitration in most cases. The point of Bardic Knowledge is that its a random accumulation of trivia, rumour, and speculation. It's a supplement to knowledge skills, not a replacement. And it does let you know a little about magic items.

Lots of things are less useful if the DM doesn't make an effort to include them -- favored enemies, for example, or turn undead.

If I want to make a "face man" character, I'm better off with rogue, period. That's just wrong. Bard should be the clear first choice.

I disagree with your conclusion. A bard and rogue will end up pretty even skill wise. Assuming identical stats, they'll both have the same Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, and Gather Information. A rogue gains the edge in Intimidate; a bard has better language and Knowledge skills, plus Perform to influence crowds, magic buffs and fascinate/suggestion. The bard ends up being good at the things you think a bard should be good at, and the rogue is almost as good at being a half-bard, and isn't as good at being a rogue because he had to sacrifice stats and some rogue-ly skills to get there.

I'd rather have something useful instead, like the ability to try any skill untrained.

And I'm sure the Paladin would like to have something that's more useful than 'Cure Disease'. A lot of wizards and sorcerors would gladly exchange their familiars for something with more bang. Not all cleric domain abilities are created equal. The countersong is certainly in keeping with the flavor, even if it isn't the most useful thing around.

A fighter with STR 8 or DEX 8 would be not very good as a fighter. Yet a bard with CHA 8 wouldn't make much of an impact. Try it.

Huh? A character with a crappy stat in it's primary area is going to be sub-optimal. Wow.

The point is from a pure skill perspective, that CHA doesn't matter that much or, rather, that a low CHA can be compensated for such that by high levels it doesn't matter as much. A 1st level half-orc bard with an 8 CHA is going to be at +3 on Diplomacy, with a 16 CHA he's at +7. The latter is more than twice as good as the former (although the variability of the die roll is much more important than either).

At 20th level, he's at +25 with a 12 CHA, or +29 with a 20 CHA. From a 133% difference to less than 25% -- the stat matters much less, and at this point the die roll under normal circumstances is a wash. The right feats can reduce that even further.

This is an aspect of the skill system, and is totally irrelevant to bardliness. It affects rogues a lot more. The lower CHA character still loses out on a ton of spells, and those he has are less effective. That's a big deal, especially since there are diminishing returns on absurdly high skill totals. Spells will be much more useful in a wide variety of situations.

WE DON'T GET OUR OWN SPELL LIST! We get a few spells and a list of hand-me-down spells from other classes. Joy. Bards need and deserve their own spell list.

You're not going to see a lot of arcane spells that a wizard doesn't have too. That'd be stepping on the wizard's role as master of all things arcane. And with third-party sources, the bard spell list doest gain some distinction. The ones who get the short end of that stick are sorcerors.

So, lets see if I've got this right. Bards suck because:

* a single-classed bard isn't as good a fighter as a multi-classed fighter/bard
* a heavily-focused rogue/sorceror multi-class can compete in some areas at the expense of others
* a rogue optimized for face-work can match them at some skills but not others while sacrificing a lot of rogue abilities and still losing out on the spell casting, bardic music and knowledge
* like all classes, they have some features that aren't universally useful or uber-powerful.
* like many classes, they have some features that require DM cooperation to take full advantage of.

Sorry, I disagree. Bards do not suck. They might not be everybody's cup of tea, or be a class that everyone can play well. They might not be a class that is terribly useful in hack-n-slash oriented campaigns (althought the bardic music is very nice in those). But a druid or ranger in an urban campaign is a fish out of water, a barbarian in a royal intrigue game is hurting, and rogues take a nice dive in undead-heavy settings. Not all classes are going to be as useful in all game types.

 

[Mad Mac]

Honestly, I've never seen a Bard that could melee worth anything. They have too many strikes against them. No feats, middle-BaB, low-hps, and stat needs that don't allow them to prioritize St and Con. Out of all core classes, I think only the Wizard and Sorc can't pound the Bard in melee, and that's only assuming they don't bust out polymorph, Shapechange, Tensers, et all.

 

[Jdvn1]

Hmm...Bard. Tough one.

Like:

Skills
Casting in Armor
Bardic Music (To a point)
Strong Reflex/Will Saves.

I can agree with this part. Just some more things to add:

Spell List-I don't consider a Bard a casting class, really. At least, not like other casting classes. Their spells go to a lower level than that of other casting classes, so their save DCs will always suffer. Their spells work better as buff spells.

I really like that Bard is an excellent buff-other-people class. Bardic Music works great for that.

Plus, they get an exotic weapon for free--awesome! I really like that, and like a whip-wielding Bard tripping baddies from behind the Fighter.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Bards are terrific characters. I love them to pieces. However, you've got to approach them with a particular mindset.

Bards are the party's managers. As high social characters, they are the ones who find leads for adventures, find out whether particular courses of action are good or not, how safe it is for the rest of the party to adventure in a particular direction, all that stuff. Furthermore, as excellent party buffers, they figure out what the party needs, when they need it, and make sure that the other members of the party can succeed when it matters most. And, as generalists, they act as backup for when one of the other members of the party is out of action.

Of course, as managers, they get a lot of crap like managers in the real world. After all, the bard doesn't DO anything. Yeah, he got the caravan to get the party to the dragon's lair without trouble. Yeah, he coached the rogue through opening the vault then healed her when the trap went off. Yeah, he sang a rousing tune as the barbarian destroyed the dragon. But did he open the vault? No. Did he clear the path to the lair? No. Did he kill the dragon? No.

But he made it all possible. That's the strength of a bard.

If you like being a star performer, showing direct success through your works, the one doing the actual defeating, then the bard isn't for you. The other classes will be much more satisfying for you. However, if you like being part of a winning team, like helping everyone be the best they can be, and enjoy smoothing the path, then the bard is terrific.

There is one area, though, that a bard can outshine everyone else: Use Magic Device. They'll have the Charisma and skill points to pull this off, and it can pull a party out of a bunch of jams. Wizard falls in battle? Use his scrolls and wands. Held back by an evil artifact? Tap into it and shut it off. Yeah, it's scary and can kill you, but a bard dedicated to Use Magic Device can pull off really amazing (and occasionally DM-frustrating) stunts.

So I like bards. Build personal credibility, keep tabs on the environment around the party, and be a strategist. That's how the bard succeeds. No class is more dependent on other people to get the job done, and it's the bard's job to keep those other people at their best.

 

[Seeten]

I recently wanted to make a face character for a game where I am going to be a Pirate. Well, everyone is going to be a pirate. So, since my character is going to be the Captain, I decided to go Face, with some skills.

I took a long look at several classes, Bard, Rogue, Assassin(alt base class) Swashbuckler, Unfettered, and I settled on Rogue. I have a cha 16, 11 skill points per level, and maxed diplo/bluff/sense motive/gather info/intimidate/every other face skill on earth and I can ALSO sneak attack. Wow.

I looked at what bards can do...and it wasn't much, and it certainly didnt make me nearly as good a face as rogue.

So, like Half-Elf, Bard is bad even at its own niche, assuming you subscribe to the idea that bard is "The Face Man". If you subscribe to Bard as buffbot/secondary healbot, then I think you are closer to accurate.

To sum up:

Likes:

Dislikes:

The Bard Class as written.

 

[Ipissimus]

Bards, like all the classes, are good in some circumstances but bad in others. Unfortunately, the bad often outweighs the good in comparison to other class options.

I've played and DMed Bards, so my opinion here comes from experience. As a stand alone PC, or in a small party of 2-3 players, Bards shine, particularly at low levels. They can substitute for a cleric in a pinch (@ low levels), fight reasonably well and take care of the more social aspects of adventuring when others aren't so inclined. About the only thing they can't do is sub for a Rogue effectively without Trapfinding.

Bards also make GREAT cohorts, particularly at higher levels where they can buff the begeebus out of everyone with the Inspire specials. In addition, you can consult them on bits of obscure lore and get them to take ranks in those 'useful skills that hardly anybody has' like Knowledge (Architecture).

Unfortunately, having played and DMed Bards in larger parties as '5th wheels', Bard PCs suffer the death of a thousand cuts, and it only gets worse the higher levels get. You have healing spells, but the Cleric's already healed everyone. You can fight, but the fighter's already killed everyone. You can cast spells and examine arcane objects, but the Wizard/Loremaster has already done all that. Worse, if you start butting into their fields of expertise, the other players can get shirty. So, in the end, the most effective thing you can do is inspire, which is like watching paint dry. Bored players are unhappy players, and you really don't want that.

It gets even worse when you start throwing in non-core, official, options, like Cloistered Cleric from UA, or even core PrCs like Arcane Trickster. The Cloistered Cleric does everything the Bard does, only they get the full Cleric spell list (including the uber-stackable buffs that quickly outmode Inspire). An Arcane Trickster gets trapfinding, full sneak attack, better spell progression and nice specials at the cost of BAB (+feats like Cosmopolitan which lets you grab Perform for flavor) and they don't have to spend Epic feats to get 9th level spells. Eldrich Knights are better if you want a Fighting/Spellcasting man.

The 'fix' for this is to go for the Bard PrC from UA, or go for one of the PrCs from the Complete Series (Sublime Chord, etc.) but I personally feel that the Bard is such a cool concept that it deserves a better treatment in the rules as a core class.

 

[dagger]

Here are some of the things we have added to the bard, but the bard (any version) still has only been played once.


All Shapes & Sizes:
Bards come in all shapes and sizes; some are hardy while others are quick (and some are hardy and quick) and a few have strong willpower. As such, bards have two good saves just like in the PHB, but they get to deicide which ones (Fort, Reflex, or Will) these are. This choice must be made at 1st level and once the decision is made, it cannot be changed.


New Bard Songs: Bards receive new songs at 5th and 9th level. Please see Table 1.2 Bard Songs for more information.

• Music of Growth – (Eberron) By consuming one of your daily uses of Bardic Music, all Animals & Plants within 30’ of you gain a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution as long as you continue performing.
  
• Inspire Spellpower – (Complete Adventurer) As a Standard Action, you can consume one use of your Bardic Music to increase the effective caster level of all allies within 30’ (including yourself if you cast spells from another class, but you cannot sing and cast spells at the same time) by 1. This lasts for as long as they hear your performance plus 5 rounds afterwards.
  

There is feat in Dragon 338 called Focused Performance, we took the feat and stripped out all the abilites:

Music of Creation

Bards have a unique way of tapping in the magic that pervades the world: through music. Some bards claim that the gods sang the world into being at the dawn of time, and that their music is an echo of that powerful tune of creation. Reflecting this connection to the forces of creation, bards have access to a number of special abilities that extend the powers of their bardic music. A bard can take these at levels 4th, 7th, 13th, 16th, or 19th level.

By spending one (or more) daily use of Bardic Music and making the indicated Perform check, you may modify your Bardic Music in any of the following ways (though only one for a given use of Bardic Music):

• Accompaniment – spend 3 uses to perform two Bardic Music abilities simultaneously. Each round you must make a Perform check vs. DC (20 + highest Perform ranks required of song) or both abilities end immediately. You may end one of the Bardic Music abilities at any time and continue the other without requiring any more Perform checks. Usable with all Bardic Music.
• Dramatic Pause – spend 2 uses to stop an ongoing Bardic Music ability for 1 round (in order to cast a spell, attack, etc.) and then resume it as if you had not stopped. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (15 + Perform ranks required of song). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
• Harmony – spend 2 uses to make a Bardic Music that normally affects one target instead affect two. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (20 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Inspire Competence, Suggestion, and Song of Freedom.
• Individual Performance – spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music that normally affects multiple targets instead only affect one (cannot be you). This target receives 2x the normal bonuses / penalties. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (15 + Perform ranks required of song). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Spellpower, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
• Projection – spend 1 use of Bardic music to have 2x the normal area of effect. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (10 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, Inspire Heroics, Inspire Spellpower, and Song of Freedom.
• Rhythm – spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music that you have been performing for at least 3 rounds last two extra rounds after you stop performing. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (10 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate, Inspire Competence, Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics.
• Riveting Performance – spend 1 use to make a Bardic Music affect all targets in range that can hear you, even if they cannot see you. Requires a Perform check vs. DC (15 + Perform ranks required). Usable with Fascinate and Inspire Competence.

 

[Wraith Form]

I enjoy the concept of the Bard, but not the Bard in practice as written for 3.5.

I think the Bard is one of those classes that really depends on the ingenuity and quick thinking of the player. If you do not have those abilities in real life, then it's going to be a very hard road indeed. While this is arguably true for any class, it is exaggerated to the Nth degree for Bards.

Versatility, Multiple Songs and Bardic Lore; all are potentially great strengths. They rely, however, on a DM's willingness to work with them, provide opportunities and roll with out-of-the-blue changes in the landscape that a Natural 20 on Lore checks can bring to party knowledge. The social aspect tends to be very limited in many games, sometimes altogether absent, which hamstring the real strengths of the Bard IMO.

All in all, I find the Bard to be either extremely capable or near useless. There usually isn't the in-between found with most other classes.

Wow, you reached into my skull, rooted around in my brain and yoinked that straight out.

I'm not crazy about the emphasis on the singing and/or music playing aspect of the bard (a little too...."sissy" for me), and always liked the spin they put on the Dark Sun version.

I like the idea of an evil (or at least "cool") bard that sings funeral dirges or recites poetry (a la Edgar Allen Poe). A Goth bard. That'd be neat to me. (Then again, I'm weird.)

 

[satori01]

I've loved Bards, forever, my favorite 2 characters of all time have been Bards, one from 1e and one from 2e.

2e Bards are probably the best incarnation so far. 2e Bard was the most skilled person in the party due to the bonuses secondary skills. Bards also could learn and cast any Wizard spell. They also could use any weapon and wear chain mail, which Rogues could not. Sadly an Akashic from AE makes a better Bard, than a Bard.

I'm not a big fan of Bardic Music. I do not like the fact that all Bards have the same effects, I would much rather see something akin to Askashic abillities, where a Bard can chose what powers he or she has. I also think that while the Bard spell list is wonderfully flavorful and unique, many of those spells are extremely situational, and the Bard has a pitiful number of spells know, and spells able to be cast each day.

Simple fixes I would do for a bard:

1) Bard knows Martial Weapons.
2) Bard learns spells like a Wizard, or a Bard like a Cleric knows all of the spells on their spell list.
3) Give the Bard 8 skill points a level.
4) let the Bard use Bardic Knowledge to Identify magic items.
5) Keep the rest of the class the same.