D&D General Bards & Sorcerers & Summoners & Warlocks & Witches & Wizards oh my!

[Steampunkette]

Based on what you have presented, here's what I would do:

Arcane: Most magic users are Arcane casters, and it has the widest range of spells.
1) Wizards and Artificers Study. They come to understand the fundamental forces of the universe and have minimal limitations on their spell choices (All Arcane Spells). They use their Intelligence Modifier when casting spells because they're recalling information and putting it into action.
2) Sorcerers are Born or Empowered. Rather than having to study magic, Sorcerers have an intuitive understanding of spellcasting based on the spark of magic inside themselves. They have spells based on that spark (Limited but broad list). They use their Wisdom Modifier when casting spells because it's representing their awareness of the flow of magic inside and around them.
3) Warlocks Bargain. They use borrowed or stolen power from external sources, but their options are limited by their source (Most limited Arcane spell list). They use Charisma for spellcasting because it represents their ability to convince their patron to grant them power.

Divine: Clerics are rare, special, and important. Limited spellcasting structure, but great power for other purposes.
1) Clerics Channel. Rather than learning magic, or being magical, or bargaining for magic, Clerics make themselves into a Vessel for the power held by higher beings and other planes of existence. They use Constitution as their casting score, to represent that their bodies literally burn out from the power traveling through them.

Spirit: Shaman and Invokers are often spiritual leaders of small groups.
Shaman ask for Aid. Shamans call for aid from the Spirit Realm, entreating the spirits to act on their behalf, to empower their weapons, or to give them power to direct at enemies. They use Charisma as their casting because it represents their ability to persuade the spirits to act on their behalf.

Primal: Druids are rare, special, and important. They're Clerics who use -this- plane's native power.
Druids focus Power. Rather than holding specific incantations or gestures, Druids channel energy in much the same way as a Cleric would. But rather than asking Gods for power, or reaching across the planes for energy, Druids channel the energy and forces of the world around us. Like Sorcerers, they do so by intuiting the nature of the power available and so use Wisdom as their spellcasting modifier.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I actually use 4 different kinds of Magic.

1) Arcane Magic. This is either learning or intuiting the nature of the universe and manipulating it.
2) Divine Magic. This is the Gods lending you some small measure of their Divine Essence which you use in prescribed ways.
3) Occult Magic. Ancient "True" Magic. Largely Representational in Nature, it touches on things mortals are not meant to know.
4) Primal Magic. The Elements, The Storm, Cycles of Life and Death, Manipulating them is a nexus between Divine, Arcane, and Occult Magics.

And then each magic has Sources.

Arcane Magic gets the Within and the Without. Without casters (Wizards, Eldritch Knights, Artificers, Arcane Tricksters) are using the magic of the world and rely on its presence. They're powerless in Dead Magic or Antimagic Zones. Within casters (Sorcerers, Magical Creatures) contain their own magic as a spark inside of themselves that can be passed down in families. They're only able to affect themselves in Antimagic or Dead Magic Zones.

Divine Magic gets the Gods and the Angels. The Gods provide divine power to Priests as reward for faith and belief so they can show the power of the Gods in the world. Angels empower Paladins who hold to strict oaths to enact change in the world. Any character with the Divine in them -tangibly- has godly power radiating outward. It cannot be hidden. Works normally in places of Dead Magic, but not if the blessing is withdrawn or your are beyond the reach of the Entity providing your power. (Also Churches and Temples literally have the feeling of the presence of the divine in them unless they've been defiled)

Occult Magic can come from The Gone, The Self, and The Unknown. The Gone are Vestiges, essentially remnants of what were, or could have been, people or Gods who still contain impressive amounts of power but lack enough "Self" to enact it. The Self is Monks, basically. Manipulating your own spiritual and emotional energies into magic. And the Unknown is dreams and the Vaktu Kai, ancient elder entities said to dwell in the darkness between stars. The Self and the Gone function on yourself in a Dead Magic zone, but the Unknown functions a lot like Divine Magic from a different, terrible, source.

Primal Magic comes from Animals, Plants, the Elements, the Storm, and the Reaping. Each is fairly self-explanatory, but the Reaping is specifically the process of death and rot.

Each one also has it's own version of Spell Components which have different rules.

Arcane Magic gets your standard V/S/M with optional Focus. It's the baseline.

Divine Magic gets Prayer (Audible no more than 10ft away), a Focus (Holy Symbol), and a Signal, which is a strong specific gesture related to your faith that everyone in the area can see. You cannot signal subtly.

Occult Magic gets Chanting (Clearly audible from 30ft away and in a monotone), Sacrifice (Effigies or symbols, mostly, but sometimes small animals or even your own Hit Dice), and a Focus. A symbol of your source that must be presented openly. Sometimes these focuses are worn, other times they're branded or tattooed into flesh.

Primal Magic makes Animal Calls or Nature Sounds (Audible from 60ft, usable in animal forms), Totems (Effigies or pieces of animals or plants), and Sacrifices (generally spell components but occasionally insects or small animals like lizards and mice. May include hit dice).

And then Psionics are their own separate but connected thing. It's a nonmagical supernatural power that some creatures can tap into thanks to the Five Fates.

Other fun note: There are no Arcane Necromancy or Divination Spells or Schools. Those typically go to the Occult spell lists and are often considered "Black Magics". Primal and Divine casters both get access to Divination spells, too, but it's not viewed as black magic in those cases.

I would hard disagree with putting monk and bard in the same category, monks literally have more uncommon with psionics as they both gain power internally, bards always felt oddly put in.

also, a monk would call it mantra not chanting, sports fans chant.

 

[Steampunkette]

I would hard disagree with putting monk and bard in the same category, monks literally have more uncommon with psionics as they both gain power internally, bards always felt oddly put in.

also, a monk would call it mantra not chanting, sports fans chant.

An Orientalist monk would call it a Mantra. And it would still be something chanted in a relatively flat monotone. Monks in the Ashen Lands are not that. I tried to avoid throwing in Southeast Asian stereotyping. So rather than being Wu Xia wirefighters, Monks guard occult knowledge in remote monasteries from those who would use it to do harm. They train with small amounts of occult knowledge, however, to give themselves an edge and all their monk class abilities are basically Warlock Invocations, narratively, without the spellcasting.

Meanwhile Bards tap into some of the same knowledge and power though stuff they pick up little bits of over time from various musics and histories they learn in their travels, and tap into something larger than themselves with an almost subconscious draw toward that power source.

 

[Mind of tempest]

An Orientalist monk would call it a Mantra. And it would still be something chanted in a relatively flat monotone. Monks in the Ashen Lands are not that. I tried to avoid throwing in Southeast Asian stereotyping. So rather than being Wu Xia wirefighters, Monks guard occult knowledge in remote monasteries from those who would use it to do harm. They train with small amounts of occult knowledge, however, to give themselves an edge and all their monk class abilities are basically Warlock Invocations, narratively, without the spellcasting.

Meanwhile Bards tap into some of the same knowledge and power though stuff they pick up little bits of over time from various musics and histories they learn in their travels, and tap into something larger than themselves with an almost subconscious draw toward that power source.

the problem of trying to remove the Asian from the monk is what we are trying to copy is fundamental asian in origin, I would rather admit that and get to work with getting it up to snuff than try to remove the cultures that invented it from it.

also occult has connotations of stuff that is evil and disapproved of, neither class has that at all.

 

[Remathilis]

I originally liked the idea of the eight(?) power-sources 4e was going to use (martial, arcane, divine, primal, shadow, psionic, elemental, and was there one other?) and I think designing classes or subclasses around these themes would have been ideal. Wizard is the primary arcane caster, cleric for divine, druid for primal, shadow could be warlock, sorcerer should have been elemental, and psion/mystic for psionic. The differences in mechanics could have been more flavorful than overt, but the types of magics should have been focused on unique spells for every source. It would have meant a LOT of spells in the books (and that is probably the #1 reason we don't have more diversity among casters) but it would have made each caster feel unique, even if they are still blasting and healing.

I don't have an idea where the bard or artificer fits in this. Clearly artifice could have been the eighth source if no-other exists, but bard feels odd; not quite psionic despite the emphasis on charms and buffs, but not fully arcane. Hmmm....

 

[Minigiant]

In my own homebrew Urban Fantasy D&D game, magic is split into many types and subtypes.

• True Magic- True Magic is simply saying the language of reality. You say it and Reality does it. Reality fights you when you speack True Speech. Mispronunciations are deadly.
  • Arcane- Arcanists speak broken dialects of True Speech themselves. The dialects prevent reality backlash.
    • Wizardry- Wizards study magical formulas to replace TrueSpeech with other words, motions and objects.
    • Sorcery- Sorcerers have True Speech written on their souls via their magical bloodline. Sorcerers meditate to invoke parts of their blood.
    • Warlocky- Warlocks make pacts to with higher beings to be transformed just enough to speech their own magic dialect.
  • Divine- Divine Casters have a Deity Speak for them.
    • Cleiricism- Clerics prayer to gods to have individual gods True Speak spells into them
    • Inquisition- Invokers prayer to gods to take latent True Speech to craft spells against their enemies
  • Primal- Primal Caster have primal spirits Speak for them
    • Druidism- Druid have natural primal spirits Speak for them
    • Shamanism- Shaman have ancestral primal spirits Speak for them
  • Shadow- Shadowcasters snags all the shadows and echoes of other casters to build spells
    • Shadowcasting- Shadowcasters understand the Shadowfell and take the shadow of True Speech to cast spells.
    • Binding- Binders make pact with long gone vestiges and use shadow to speak through them.6

 

[Steampunkette]

the problem of trying to remove the Asian from the monk is what we are trying to copy is fundamental asian in origin, I would rather admit that and get to work with getting it up to snuff than try to remove the cultures that invented it from it.

also occult has connotations of stuff that is evil and disapproved of, neither class has that at all.

Occultism in the Ashen Lands doesn't have the "Connotation" of Evil. It just flatly -is- considered evil.

Warlocks and Warsworn (Basically Martial Warlocks) are universally despised and if you're revealed to be one there's good odds you'll be ridden out of town on a Rail if you're well-liked and burned at the stake otherwise. Monks keep themselves out of town for a similar reason, though most people wouldn't recognize their abilities as explicitly Occult without some kind of knowledge.

Bards are sort of Stealth-Occultists. They know it's occult, but for most it's just magical music. What harm can come from that?

As to Monk abilities?

Unarmored Defense is Supernatural protection 'cause monks typically don't have armor.
Martial Arts are just unarmed combat styles, but most monasteries have a preferred weapon they do their bonus action attacks with.
Unarmored Movement: Expeditious Retreat
Deflect Missiles? Shield Spell.
Slow Fall: Magic
Stunning Strike: Melee Magic
Ki Empowered Strikes: Melee Magic
Stillness of Mind: Protection from Occult Mind-Control Forces
Purity of Body: Protection from Aberration Attacks (Elder Things in the canon)
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: Literally just the Tongues Spell.
Diamond Soul: Fortifying themselves against all sorts of magics
Empty Body: Astral Projection and Invisibility.
Perfect Soul: Just high end capstone training for Occult Power to always be available.

Change the names, change the narrative, and it works really well for someone defending ancient texts and artifacts that should not be in the hands of mortal men and the horrors that such things can unleash.

 

[Steampunkette]

Monks in the Ashen Lands are less

And more

Or even

With a heaping helping of

To keep Villagers from trying to get too close to their sanctuaries.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Monks in the Ashen Lands are less

And more

Or even

With a heaping helping of

To keep Villagers from trying to get too close to their sanctuaries.

all I am seeing in wizards which is kinda the problem just replace monk with wizard and no one would ever notice and that is not a good thing for the monk ass then what is the point of it in your setting? you can just cut them if they do not fit.

 

[Steampunkette]

all I am seeing in wizards which is kinda the problem just replace monk with wizard and no one would ever notice and that is not a good thing for the monk ass then what is the point of it in your setting? you can just cut them if they do not fit.

Eh.

A Wizard would have a d6 Hit Dice, lack the increased fighting prowess, not get increased resistance to Elder Things attack methods, and largely fail as being protectors of occult knowledge who dabble in it's shores... Which is the narrative intent of these Monks.

I guess we'll just have to be glad you're not playing in the Ashen Lands.