D&D General Bards & Sorcerers & Summoners & Warlocks & Witches & Wizards oh my!

[DammitVictor]

Since we're talking about alternatives to the arcane/divine split... I've got three settings, and I'm doing it different in all three. This is largely because I want all three settings to be distinct, with a very different texture to them, but also because I believe any question like "what are the sources of magical power, and how do they function?" should vary fundamentally on a setting-to-setting basis.

Shroompunk is my "closest to D&D" setting, having been designed from the beginning as a sort of alternative to the kind of old-school in the OSR movement. The sort of "default" power source is Martial/Psychic, which forms the basis of having things like Proficiencies and Hit Dice and every character class has at least some martial/psychic abilities as they level. The other power sources are... kinda priest-like in general D&D terms, but cover multiple class roles: Draconic is elemental/primal/life magic based on the 10 True Dragons; Celestial is magic of the star spirits, sort of holy/radiant/enchantment; Abyssal is the magic of the underworld, shadow/undeath/hellfire; and Aberrant is the magic of the Warp Zones, goolock/teleportation/mindbending/fleshwarping.

Cascade City is my urban fantasy/wuxia/paranormal/planetary romance setting. There's Martial power, Psychic power, and Magic power-- and they're basically separate, but functionally developing any one of them makes developing the other two easier, and reaching the loftiest heights of any one requires developing at least a little in the other two.

And my currently untitled space opera project, currently running in Alternity 1998, only has Psionics and a couple of closely related types of Magic; psionics effectively acts as a prerequisite to magic, with psionics being a direct application of psychic power, and magic being the use of psychic power to open a channel to otherworldly beings. There are... a bewildering variety of these kinds of otherworldly beings that humans (and, to be fair, most other mortals) try to categorize, wildly inaccurately, as "angelic" and "demonic" and maybe sometimes "other". They're not exclusive, but it's hard to form an exploitable relationship with more than one of these beings and even harder with different kinds of them.

 

[Cadence]

Based on what you have presented, here's what I would do:

Arcane: Most magic users are Arcane casters, and it has the widest range of spells.
1) Wizards and Artificers Study. They come to understand the fundamental forces of the universe and have minimal limitations on their spell choices (All Arcane Spells). They use their Intelligence Modifier when casting spells because they're recalling information and putting it into action.
2) Sorcerers are Born or Empowered. Rather than having to study magic, Sorcerers have an intuitive understanding of spellcasting based on the spark of magic inside themselves. They have spells based on that spark (Limited but broad list). They use their Wisdom Modifier when casting spells because it's representing their awareness of the flow of magic inside and around them.
3) Warlocks Bargain. They use borrowed or stolen power from external sources, but their options are limited by their source (Most limited Arcane spell list). They use Charisma for spellcasting because it represents their ability to convince their patron to grant them power.

Those all seem in the ballpark to what I have. The complication that I'm mulling is if I want to have four mental stats -

• Psyche - Knowledge, mental storage capacity
• Awareness - Perception, Sensitivity, and Insight
• Charisma - Strength of Personality, Ability to Project ones will (lower case) against others
• Will - Mental Fortitude and Mental Stamina

Wizards and Artificers seem Psyche (at least for number of spells known), but would number of spells they can cast per day be modified by Wisdom?

Would sorcerers by your description be Awareness, and by the standard be Charisma? But now I'm down that road of if the number of spells they can cast is based on Will? Or can you picture one that has Awareness for the number of spells known and Charisma for the casting bonus, and will for number cast per day? Or would Charisma cover all of it for one variant?

Divine: Clerics are rare, special, and important. Limited spellcasting structure, but great power for other purposes.
1) Clerics Channel. Rather than learning magic, or being magical, or bargaining for magic, Clerics make themselves into a Vessel for the power held by higher beings and other planes of existence. They use Constitution as their casting score, to represent that their bodies literally burn out from the power traveling through them.

Spirit: Shaman and Invokers are often spiritual leaders of small groups.
Shaman ask for Aid. Shamans call for aid from the Spirit Realm, entreating the spirits to act on their behalf, to empower their weapons, or to give them power to direct at enemies. They use Charisma as their casting because it represents their ability to persuade the spirits to act on their behalf.

Primal: Druids are rare, special, and important. They're Clerics who use -this- plane's native power.
Druids focus Power. Rather than holding specific incantations or gestures, Druids channel energy in much the same way as a Cleric would. But rather than asking Gods for power, or reaching across the planes for energy, Druids channel the energy and forces of the world around us. Like Sorcerers, they do so by intuiting the nature of the power available and so use Wisdom as their spellcasting modifier.

Thanks for the extra things to think about!

Occult Magic can come from The Gone, The Self, and The Unknown. The Gone are Vestiges, essentially remnants of what were, or could have been, people or Gods who still contain impressive amounts of power but lack enough "Self" to enact it. The Self is Monks, basically. Manipulating your own spiritual and emotional energies into magic. And the Unknown is dreams and the Vaktu Kai, ancient elder entities said to dwell in the darkness between stars. The Self and the Gone function on yourself in a Dead Magic zone, but the Unknown functions a lot like Divine Magic from a different, terrible, source.

When doing power sources, how out there is it for the power behind the Monks to be related to the Barbarian Rage, and the Grit of the Duelist or Panache of the Swashbuckler in PF? What happens if you do Monk is to Psionicist as Paladin is to Cleric, Ranger is to Druid, and Magus is to Wizard?

Oh, uh... Bards are Occultists in my system. But their magic specifically breaks the Chanting function by allowing them to sing or otherwise perform magic through music. Like Monks they use the Self. Specifically emotions and ideals as a power-source for their spellcasting abilities. Though more than a few bards touch on the Vestige of the Fiddler.

A musician in life, a bard of great power, the Fiddler was defeated and trapped within the Wasteland (Plane of Broken Things, where the Gods discard their failures and where mortal dreams and aspirations go to fade). Over time, the Fiddler's identity broke down through the power of the Wasteland to break beings and ideas and objects down to their most quintessential elements, but the Fiddler was not destroyed. Instead, the Fiddler became the Quintessence of Minstrel Bards and offers ancient musics and strange melodies to those who deal with the Fiddler.

The bard going after knowledge feels like it should be akin to the Wizard to me. I haven't thought about it as using magic of themselves before. Thanks for the new take.

the problem of trying to remove the Asian from the monk is what we are trying to copy is fundamental asian in origin, I would rather admit that and get to work with getting it up to snuff than try to remove the cultures that invented it from it.

If something equivalent to Ki used in other places around the world but with a different name? The actual name monk is from Greek/Latin/German? Does it change if the martial arts aren't particularly like those of the far east? Are we limiting too much if Barbarians, and Druids and Monks and Bards tie into the real world history?

also occult has connotations of stuff that is evil and disapproved of, neither class has that at all.

I haven't gotten the connotation that it's evil.

 

[Cadence]

I originally liked the idea of the eight(?) power-sources 4e was going to use (martial, arcane, divine, primal, shadow, psionic, elemental, and was there one other?) and I think designing classes or subclasses around these themes would have been ideal. Wizard is the primary arcane caster, cleric for divine, druid for primal, shadow could be warlock, sorcerer should have been elemental, and psion/mystic for psionic. The differences in mechanics could have been more flavorful than overt, but the types of magics should have been focused on unique spells for every source. It would have meant a LOT of spells in the books (and that is probably the #1 reason we don't have more diversity among casters) but it would have made each caster feel unique, even if they are still blasting and healing.

I don't have an idea where the bard or artificer fits in this. Clearly artifice could have been the eighth source if no-other exists, but bard feels odd; not quite psionic despite the emphasis on charms and buffs, but not fully arcane. Hmmm....

I apparently stopped paying attention to 4e too early, I missed shadow and elemental.

I keep thinking Bard is just a different flavor of arcane. Are alchemy and rune craft arcane too?

 

[Steampunkette]

Those all seem in the ballpark to what I have. The complication that I'm mulling is if I want to have four mental stats -

• Psyche - Knowledge, mental storage capacity
• Awareness - Perception, Sensitivity, and Insight
• Charisma - Strength of Personality, Ability to Project ones will (lower case) against others
• Will - Mental Fortitude and Mental Stamina

Wizards and Artificers seem Psyche (at least for number of spells known), but would number of spells they can cast per day be modified by Wisdom?

Would sorcerers by your description be Awareness, and by the standard be Charisma? But now I'm down that road of if the number of spells they can cast is based on Will? Or can you picture one that has Awareness for the number of spells known and Charisma for the casting bonus, and will for number cast per day? Or would Charisma cover all of it for one variant?

I would say Awareness if you wanted to go that direction, while Warlocks are the Charisma Casters.

Thanks for the extra things to think about!

You're welcome!

When doing power sources, how out there is it for the power behind the Monks to be related to the Barbarian Rage, and the Grit of the Duelist or Panache of the Swashbuckler in PF? What happens if you do Monk is to Psionicist as Paladin is to Cleric, Ranger is to Druid, and Magus is to Wizard?

Not out there at all. It's not the direction I personally went for, but that's because I want my Monks to guard occult relics and be lightly magical while my Psionics are different. Not a form of magic at all, in fact.

Though Barbarian Rage -is- tied to Primal and Occult Power.

The bard going after knowledge feels like it should be akin to the Wizard to me. I haven't thought about it as using magic of themselves before. Thanks for the new take.

Bards are mostly looking for Music and the Power behind it. Though another aspect of them is that I give them Patrons in the setting, so they also often work as spies for nobility.

I haven't gotten the connotation that it's evil.

So... it is and it also isn't.

The world was originally created by the Five Fates, the Yaktu Kai. These entities dreamed the world into being. Filled it with creatures. With plants. With everything. And dreamed of Gods. And those Gods helped their chosen people (Humans, Elves, all that jazz) rise up against the "Elder Things" that the Five Fates dreamed into being. Basically Aberrations.

True magic, REAL magic, the FIRST magic, in the setting is Occult. Secret, hidden, dangerous knowledge tied to those Five Fates, to the Dream they've constructed, to the very basis of all things... That's why the Monks and Bards can tap into the Self. The Occult -is- us.

But the more people who tamper with Occult magics, and the stronger they are, the more of a lure they are for the Elder Things. For the Five Fates. For all the bedtime stories and nightmares to burst forth into reality. So use of the Occult is taboo pretty much everywhere.

In it's abject function it isn't explicitly evil. But great evil can come from it, more often than not. So people -consider- it to be evil. It's labeled Black Magic as a result.

 

[Cadence]

<insert the original things that led to this about whether "Occult" was viewed as evil>

The world was originally created by the Five Fates, the Yaktu Kai. These entities dreamed the world into being. Filled it with creatures. With plants. With everything. And dreamed of Gods. And those Gods helped their chosen people (Humans, Elves, all that jazz) rise up against the "Elder Things" that the Five Fates dreamed into being. Basically Aberrations.

True magic, REAL magic, the FIRST magic, in the setting is Occult. Secret, hidden, dangerous knowledge tied to those Five Fates, to the Dream they've constructed, to the very basis of all things... That's why the Monks and Bards can tap into the Self. The Occult -is- us.

But the more people who tamper with Occult magics, and the stronger they are, the more of a lure they are for the Elder Things. For the Five Fates. For all the bedtime stories and nightmares to burst forth into reality. So use of the Occult is taboo pretty much everywhere.

In it's abject function it isn't explicitly evil. But great evil can come from it, more often than not. So people -consider- it to be evil. It's labeled Black Magic as a result.

I can certainly see it being that way in some settings.

How do you think the idea of "occult" (as opposed to magic, say) is viewed in real life? Does it have any more of an evil connotation than wizardry or sorcery, or just more mysterious? (As opposed to say how witchcraft vs theurgy, even if unfairly).

 

[Steampunkette]

<insert the original things that led to this about whether "Occult" was viewed as evil>



I can certainly see it being that way in some settings.

How do you think the idea of "occult" (as opposed to magic, say) is viewed in real life? Does it have any more of an evil connotation than wizardry or sorcery, or just more mysterious? (As opposed to say how witchcraft vs theurgy, even if unfairly).

Occult Rituals
Magic Rituals
Religious Rituals

One of these has a stronger negative connotation. Mostly because Occult things rely on Cults which are inherently viewed as external to accepted faiths and identities.

 

[Cadence]

Occult Rituals
Magic Rituals
Religious Rituals

One of these has a stronger negative connotation. Mostly because Occult things rely on Cults which are inherently viewed as external to accepted faiths and identities.

That makes sense.

For some reason, occult and occultism seem different in my head... and I can't figure out why. The strange fish things off the coast and their cult seem occult, occultism make me think of the people at the nearby University who study them (and I guess scientists are good?). I have no idea.

 

[steeldragons]

Here's a rough visual of how things work out in my homebrew setting/game. (just for reference, see that little triangle in the dead center? That's where "The Magic Bard's can access" lives.)

 

[Cadence]

Here's a rough visual of how things work out in my homebrew setting/game. (just for reference, see that little triangle in the dead center? That's where "The Magic Bard's can access" lives.)

Nice.

I might almost put the witch in the middle of your Venn diagram and maybe bard where it was. I'm used to stories about Witches getting powers from spirits, but not bards. Should nature magic allow healing too?

 

[steeldragons]

Nice.

I might almost put the witch in the middle of your Venn diagram and maybe bard where it was. I'm used to stories about Witches getting powers from spirits, but not bards. Should nature magic allow healing too?

Well, it's not strictly a Venn diagram. It also relays some visual... "cues," I suppose, as it's not really in-stone "rules" or anything...about both the number of casters working in those areas, and how much of a particular caster's "magic/spells" are their own.

That is, to use your sample/suggestion, a Witch uses Witchcraft. A Witch is going to have spells that, more or less, do things that can be achieved/duplicated (if not the same exact spells) with Arcane Magic and Nature Magic in equal measure. A smaller fraction of their spells/craft is put toward things that can be done with/by Divine Magic (e.g. a divine caster could do it, too).

Whereas the Bard's use of magic (for my system and setting) is simply very small bits of Arcane and Divine and Nature. Some of it could be duplicated by a Witch or a Shaman or a Cleric or a Mage, but a Bard is not going to be able to do everything that any of those other casters can do.

As for "working with Spirits"....that is something that really goes to the 'school/art/practice" of magic work being used, not or "versus" the type/kind/source of the energy. A Druid can speak to (and conjure) nature/elemental spirits and Commune with Nature. Mages can Contact Other Plane, conjure any kind of creature from just about anywhere. Clerics and Paladins conjure Planar Allies, commune with spiritual entities and deific powers... and, basically, anyone/all of the above proverbially dips their toe enough into the pool of Necromancy to "Speak with Dead" in some fashion or form.

So, the diagram(s) isn't really about which of the methods of magic a particular practitioner has access to, though that is "connected," a part of it. But what energies, the "Source" of the magic, is being accessed/enacted.

If that makes sense...or maybe I'm just falling through a esoteric rabbit hole in thinking any of this matters to a world setting or player.