D&D 5E Battlemaster: 18th level feature

[Fanaelialae]

I can see that with Eldritch Knight and even champion, because Champion's Survivor really is awesome and Eldritch Knight gets spell progression in the levels between 12 and 20 (2nd level spells => 4th level spells). But the Battlemaster...

If you go Battlemaster 12/Arcane Trickster 8, you generally increase your damage, against any foe with a high AC where an ally is adjacent or advantage applies. E.g. vs AC 19 Adult Red Dragon your DPR goes from 34 to 38. Yes, you miss out on an extra action surge and two Indomitable usages, and you have 5 d10s for seven maneuvers instead of 6 d12s for nine maneuvers, no Relentless, and one less feat. In return you gain Cunning Action (which could boost DPR even further via Hide against tough foes, and also helps mobility), a suite of defensive spells (Shield, Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image), Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Expertise on your Athletics/Stealth/Perception checks (plus one more). Evasion alone probably makes up for the missing Indomitables, especially since you've already got one and there are diminishing returns.

Maybe it's because of playstyle, and the fact that I prioritize survivability[1], but the Arcane Trickster additions look way better to me than the battlemaster's mild increase in spike damage output and extra feat.

I never said that multiclassing Arcane Trickster was a bad way to go, but I don't see it as being strictly superior to Battlemaster 20. It's arguably better in terms of survivability, but you're giving up a significant amount of nova ability in order to do so.

Fully leveled, the Fighter/Arcane Trickster can make two attacks with a +4d6 sneak attack each round, using Action Surge once to make four attacks (only one of which can be a sneak attack). Using action surge he can make six attacks over two rounds with 8d6 bonus damage from sneak attack. Additionally, he cannot use GWF if he wants to also use sneak attack (which may or may not be relevant depending on whether GWF is even allowed).

The Battlemaster can make four attacks, and use Action surge twice to make four additional attacks. Using action surge he can make sixteen attacks over two rounds. There are many cases, where I'd rather have Indomitable over Evasion (anything that doesn't involve a Dex save). Evasion isn't that amazing since all it does is reduce damage. As a fighter I'd be more concerned about things like Hold Person or Mind Blast, which is where Indomitable will be of greatest benefit.

I'll grant you that the Arcane Trickster is probably generally better from a defensive perspective. However, defense is not the be-all, end-all. Sometimes you just want a character that can crack some skulls, and leave defense to someone else (or else run with the "a good defense is a good offense" strategy and hope for the best).

[1] E.g. due to the dynamic-sandbox nature of my world, surviving an ambush by ten Mage Armored Invisible Stalkers when you're bedding down for the night is indeed a thing--and when I play, my PCs worry about the same scenario happening to them the same thing.

I would never leave home without Leomund's Tiny Hut or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion.

 

[El Mahdi]

Is it just me, or is the Battlemaster 18th level feature the lamest 18th level feature ever?
...
The Battlemaster... gets to increase his d10 superiority dice to d12s. Wheee?

You think that's bad? Their 3rd level feature, Student of War, gives them proficiency with one type of artisan's tools.

Really?!?! What the hell do Artisan's Tools have to do with the Study of War?!?!

That's like reading Sun Tzu to learn how to use an Herbalism Kit...or a Forgery or Disguise Kit.

Even a Calligrapher's Kit or Navigator's Tools, while maybe tangentially useful, have no conceptual relation to the Study of War.

It's as if while they were writing this, they realized the archetype needed something at 3rd level - because other classes/archetypes got something at 3rd level - but couldn't think of anything conceptually relevant. So they just threw in Artisan's Tools to fill the slot.

The Battlemaster has significant issues, conceptually and functionally. The 18th level feature is just the last feature of the class's progression to miss the mark; and it's not even the worst.

 

[bedir than]

You're right. It's a rather minor ribbon when every (I think) other subclass gets a defining feature for their first every subclass feature.

I'm dumb. Maneuvers matter

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I never said that multiclassing Arcane Trickster was a bad way to go, but I don't see it as being strictly superior to Battlemaster 20. It's arguably better in terms of survivability, but you're giving up a significant amount of nova ability in order to do so.

Fully leveled, the Fighter/Arcane Trickster can make two attacks with a +4d6 sneak attack each round, using Action Surge once to make four attacks (only one of which can be a sneak attack). Using action surge he can make six attacks over two rounds with 8d6 bonus damage from sneak attack. Additionally, he cannot use GWF if he wants to also use sneak attack (which may or may not be relevant depending on whether GWF is even allowed).

He gets three attacks, not two. GWM is relevant only in melee and does not conflict with Sneak Attack anyway, only with Cunning Action. He still gets Indomitable, just not as many, and against e.g. dragon breath Indomitable is strictly inferior to Evasion anyway--not to mention Absorb Elements potentially on top. But yes, against mental threats/Banishment/etc. the battlemaster is stronger, that is indeed part of the tradeoff.

So anyway, the Battlemaster 12/Arcane Trickster 8 is about 50% stronger than you give it credit for above. How does that affect your calculations of relative desirability?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

You think that's bad? Their 3rd level feature, Student of War, gives them proficiency with one type of artisan's tools.

Their main 3rd level feature is maneuvers and superiority dice and is quite good.

 

[El Mahdi]

Their main 3rd level feature is maneuvers and superiority dice and is quite good.

I didn't say it was the only feature at 3rd level, nor does your reply address the actual context of my post.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I didn't say it was the only feature at 3rd level, nor does your reply actually address the context of my post...

I agree it's odd... but I think the idea was they needed to buff out of combat role too. The real problem is they needed the fighter to serve too many masters, and they tried to make 1 sub class complex and the other simple, and they fell flat...

 

[El Mahdi]

I agree it's odd... but I think the idea was they needed to buff out of combat role too. The real problem is they needed the fighter to serve too many masters, and they tried to make 1 sub class complex and the other simple, and they fell flat...

That could very well be it. Maybe they were just giving it something...anything...not focused on the Combat Tier. Strictly speaking, Indomitable has out-of-combat functionality (has application in the Exploration tier), but it's still combat of a sort.

Eldritch Knight doesn't have anything extra with out-of-combat applicability except maybe a spell or two (like Light or Protection from Evil).

Champion has Remarkable Athlete, which is at least consistent with the concept.

But Artisan's Tools for Student of War? It doesn't even fit the title of the feature, let alone the concept of the class.

Fell flat indeed...

 

[Fanaelialae]

He gets three attacks, not two. GWM is relevant only in melee and does not conflict with Sneak Attack anyway, only with Cunning Action. He still gets Indomitable, just not as many, and against e.g. dragon breath Indomitable is strictly inferior to Evasion anyway--not to mention Absorb Elements potentially on top. But yes, against mental threats/Banishment/etc. the battlemaster is stronger, that is indeed part of the tradeoff.

So anyway, the Battlemaster 12/Arcane Trickster 8 is about 50% stronger than you give it credit for above. How does that affect your calculations of relative desirability?

You're right. The nova Trickster gets 9 attacks over2 rounds vs the Battlemaster's 16. GMW is a factor because you can't sneak attack with a two hander. I still don't think the Battlemaster is lacking when compared to the multiclass.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I didn't say it was the only feature at 3rd level, nor does your reply address the actual context of my post.

I didn't see much content to address--it was just a rant. And you definitely did leave people (including the guy who posted after you) with the impression that it was the only feature at 3rd level, perhaps because you wrote this:

It's as if while they were writing this, they realized the archetype needed something at 3rd level - because other classes/archetypes got something at 3rd level - but couldn't think of anything conceptually relevant. So they just threw in Artisan's Tools to fill the slot.

In fact, the Battlemaster at 3rd level gets 4 d8 superiority dice and three maneuvers to go with them (real feature) plus artisan tool proficiency (ribbon). Compare to the Eldritch Knight who gets three first-level spells and two spell slots (real feature) plus weapon summoning (mostly ribbon), or the Champion who gets Improved Critical (real feature) and no ribbon. The Battlemaster's artisan tool proficiency looks perfectly fine from that perspective, and while it doesn't do a great job of expressing "cerebral fighter" the way a Tactics or Military History skill would, those skills do not exist in 5E so proficiency in Weaponsmithing or Fletching is about as close as you can get.